A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[YellowDog]

That's not the point I was trying to make.

I was refering specifically to group rides and open road riding (whether in a group or on one's own).

Well I guess I do agree with you that this is one of many problems and the primary reason I choose to avoid such rides.

[p.dath]

I've read what I wrote again Stranger. It appears the two of us are getting a different meaning from the same text.

P.Dath - hear what Jim etc are saying...
The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster. The Govt's stated aim is to slow everyone down, so they are hardly likely to support initiatives that counter that.
As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.

What the fuck? The govt opening tyre shops isn't going to help road safety one iota. What the fuck are you smoking?

I'm saying just because the Government does not run advanced rider training does not mean they do not support drivers/riders getting additional training.

So they spend millions and millions of dollars ostensibly to keep us alive and hadn't considered driver training as a possiblitiy? Really? All it will take is for you to suggest it, I'm sure they just hadn't thought of it.

Training has been discussed a lot. Did you take part in the Safer Journers discussion that happended recently? There was a lot of talk about changing and improving the training around the GDLS scheme. This is the web site if you want to read up about the changes to training that we being proposed:
http://www.saferjourneys.govt.nz/

No. Is that what you were trying to say when you said
"To be fair, track day training is generaly much safer because of its predictablity."?

You indicated trackday training is "generaly much safer because of its predictablity" what is the basis for your assertion. Do you have some statistical evidence to back that up?

I don't think I have seen any empirical studies into either track or on-road training to support either conclusion. So I can only offer my personal opinion. Lets take one aspect. Personally I think it is safer practicing counter-balancing going around corners at 100km/h when there are no oncoming vehicles, you can run wide because the track is much wider than a road, and when you don't get it right you can go and do it again on the same corner in the same conditions until you do get it right. A road is not forgiving like a track.

Does that make sense? Do you understand why I personally feel this way - even if you don't share my viewpoint?

Who said anything about only doing road based programs - oh thats right you. Dude you're arguing with yourself, it's not a good look.

Both yourself and JD sad you felt there was no value in track based training, and that it should be done on the road. I said I don't agree. And I've explained why I don't agree.

[hayd3n]

make it compulsory that all new riders sign up to kiwi-biker!@!!

[The Stranger:Me]

Should we be happy with 400?

I don't plan to be in that group no matter what size it is thanks. Do you?
More die each year from prostate cancer (than 400) and what resources get put into that by comparrison? It's a fucken storm in a teacup created by the stroke of a pen.
So yep, I'm happy with 400.

[The Stranger:Me]

Both yourself and JD sad you felt there was no value in track based training.

Please advise the post number or thread where I said this.

[McJim]

I think that there needs to be an overall attitude shift in New Zealand. At the risk of being advised to "Go back home ya pommie git" I have to confess that drivers, riders and cyclists in the UK are Waaaay more courteous and vigilant than here. There is an air of cooperation on UK motorways and roads and a sort of "we're all in it together" road user mentality. Of course there are some fuckwits too as there are in any subset of the human population just not as many as here. Another disturbing phenomenon I have seen here is where a driver makes an error other drivers actively try to get involved in a collision (coz they are right) back home I have seen people make errors and the other road users made way for the mistake - no one was hurt and a wave of apology was made.

Remember New Zealand it's never a race on the open road and if someone overtakes you it's nothing personal.

[p.dath]

Please advise the post number or thread where I said this.

I apologise. You never said it directly. I had inferred it from what you wrote.

With regard to JD's posts, I was thinking of number 8:

The track day phenomenon has diminished the appeal of road based training

and number 25:

Track days are a false economy. The incorrect assumption that track days improve people's handling skills so there are less accidents is patently untrue when you consider that 40% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle cornering "accidents". The most important survival skill is situational awareness. Avoiding incidents before they become a problem and making that attitude second nature. You can't learn situational awareness on a race track that is relevant to road riding.

[bsasuper]

I hate to say it but the aussies have one up on us, they have been making the general public aware of motorcyclists for over 20yrs.

[MSTRS:Me]

Your a mentor, so I have to give you credit for riding skills and experience that would greatly exceed mine.

I can only comment from personal experience (and your experience doing on track training is obviously different to mine). I feel much safer practising skills on a track where I know there are no dangers (or rather, there is a lot more predictability with regard to hazards). I much prefer practising counter-balancing, leaning, changing body positions, throttle control, looking where I want to go, and any other number of things on the track. The track lets me greatly extend my limits. Once I get back on the road everything feels much easier, as rather than riding within 80% of my limit at some particular point, I might now be riding at only 40% of my ability.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone else wanting to improve their skills to also attend track based training after my own personal experiences.

I'm not saying there is no point in track-based training...but really, you said it yourself where I've bolded it. Also applies to road surface etc. Almost nothing is 'predictable' on the road, like it is on a track. And that is where track-based training (for road riding) falls down. You are far better to do a RRRS course to learn the basics of bike handling, and then practise on a quiet road.

I'm saying just because the Government does not run advanced rider training does not mean they do not support drivers/riders getting additional training.

Support means providing courses or funding tutors to do so. Patently, this does not exist. And senior traffic officials, including police are on record as saying they do not support advanced driver training. For the reasons we've already stated in this thread.

[The Stranger:Me]

I apologise. You never said it directly. I had incorrectly inferred it from what you wrote.

With regard to JD's posts, I was thinking of number 8:

and number 25:

JD's quotes would appear to be a stretch to fit "there was no value in track based training". Personally I didn't read them at all this way.
I read those quotes as effectively saying there is not as much road riding safety value in track training as many (yourself and dpex) may think - and I agree with JD 100% in that regard.

They are great fun and I enjoy "track based training" whenever I can. I also learn and improve each time I do so, but lfinding the quickest line through castrol is surely of dubious value for road riding. There is no castrol corner on the road, were there I would be on a fucked line for road riding and way exceeding speed limits and safety margins.

[caseye]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.

[The Stranger:Me]

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.

As you are into telling people how they should think and behave I expect you wont mind the same back at ya.
Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

[Katman]

Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

Don't take it so personally Noel.

You're starting to sound like Mom, yungatart and chanceyy.

If one can honestly say that something doesn't apply to them, then it probably doesn't apply to them.

[dipshit]

Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

And here lies a big part of the problem.

When it comes to operating a vehicle on public roads - your frame of mind and attitude play a huge role.

[caseye]

I have told no one how to ride,how to think or behave. I've outlined a scenario, please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming you've either been involved in that exact or similar scenario and lived to ride another day, was this because you were better than the other guy or because you already knew the possible outcome of this sort of behaviour and declined to be caught up in the red mist descending.
I don't mind anyone having differing opinions to my own or others, thats what makes us uniquely different.
Difference should be cherished but surely a united approach to teaching our young people/riders common garden respect for themselves and others isn't a bad thing?