A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[shrub]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

We will never stop motorcycle accidents, but what we can do is reduce them. What if we could increase the number of riders doing advanced training by 20%? And the number of beginners by 50%? And what if we could get more people wearing riding trousers? That alone would have a significant saving. Or introduced safety standards for riding gear so people could choose kit that worked?

And I believe we can change NZers driving attitudes. I work in marketing, and marketing is about changing attitudes - look at how socially unacceptable drinking and driving or even speeding are these day? Once it was a bit of a badge of honour to be a fast driver, now it's very uncool.

Road conditions are a factor, but a bigger factor is teaching people to ride to those conditions or teaching people to keep their speed to a level where they can react and respond to dangerous roads in time and appropriately.

[p.dath]

As you are into telling people how they should think and behave I expect you wont mind the same back at ya.
Stop telling me how I should ride and how I should feel about my humility and fellow man and my responsibility.

You know, I find your attitude almost alarming, especially since you a mentor and helping teach other riders. I didn't get that ("being told what to do") at all from reading the message.

This thread was about a fatality, and shortly afterwards the discussion steared towards that attitudes of riders and how that could be leading to riders dieing. And then we get alarmist posts like yours effectively saying "I'm going to do whatever I want so fuck off". You aggressive attitude merely lend support to those who want to impose more regulation.

When you use a shared public medium, that being a public road, you have to have a certain degree of rules that everyone has to conform to. For example, in NZ you have to wear a crash helmet. We like to think these rules exist to promote the lifespan of the users. I like to think so anyway. I don't know if you accept this, or if you also say "fuck you" to the Government and ride without a helmet. You have to accept being told what to do.

I think, ideally, we all want minimalist Government regulation, so that we are free to make personal choices. However, everytime we have another rider down we tempt the Government into just a little bit more regulation to "limit" what we can do.

Know that when you use the public roads you don't just place yourself at risk, but also other users on the road. And if an accident happens it doesn't just affect those directly involved. It affects their families as well. It affects a lot of people. I think this is one of the main reasons we have regulation. Because so many people are affected.


So perhaps could I encourage you to reflect internally, and adopt a supportive attitude as opposed to the aggressive one displayed. We don't want aggressive attitudes carried onto the road. We don't want new riders entering the system learning aggressive attitudes. Know that you get nothing from a post but what you take away from it. So if you don't like the message, just don't take anything away from it.

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.


I'll now put on my flame suit, so you can exercise your right of reply. I don't think further discussion in this area will be helpfull, so I'll leave it at this.

[James Deuce]

You've simply filled a huge blank space with a bunch of negative commentary about a rider with whom you haven't ridden. I too subscribe to the "fuck off, I'll do it my way thanks" school of thought, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does.

[Katman]

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.

Bob Marley just turned in his grave.

[SPman]

I have to agree here, lived in Oz for 7 years and yes they are good drivers/riders very considerate.

Obviously, you have never driven in Perth!
West Australia....like Auckland with more SUV's. 6 riders dead in WA THIS YEAR - 4 at intersections on main roads where vehicles just pulled in front of them! New car drivers have logged instructor time and logged driving time before they get a license and it means squat!

[Mikkel]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Tourists: most tourists who come to NZ experience much better road conditions in their home countries and then come here to NZ

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

Rider training: Is being done large scale in other countries. It is not a question of whether we can afford to do it - it's a question of whether we can afford not to do it.

ATGATT: Indeed, it's somewhat difficult to force people to do anything. You can take steps to motivate people to wear adequate riding gear - goes hand-in-hand with both training and attitude.

Attitude: Attitude changes all the time - directing the change in a positive manner is difficult, yes. Impossible, no! So not an excuse not to try - and try hard too.

Tourists: NZ should be happy as long as they can afford to come here and put some money into the economy. And the roads are not that bad.

Road conditions: I agree something could be done about this. Ensuring the roadworks are properly sign-posted. Get coloured grit that doesn't blend with the normal surface. Just to mention two things.

It's not the road conditions that kill people - it's the mentality of not driving to the conditions that does. Alas, motorists are not being encouraged into thinking for themselves.

You've simply filled a huge blank space with a bunch of negative commentary about a rider with whom you haven't ridden. I too subscribe to the "fuck off, I'll do it my way thanks" school of thought, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does.

You actually read that stuff?

[steve_t]

Bob Marley just turned in his grave.

And that Bobby Mcwhatshisface is laughing his head off

[jonbuoy]

Maybe some people are always going to be too immature to ride a sportsbike/motorbike on the road hence the number "I'm selling my bike before I kill myself" threads.

[Katman]

Maybe some people are always going to be too immature to ride a sportsbike/motorbike on the road hence the number "I'm selling my bike before I kill myself" threads.

Beyond's going to hate you for that post.

[boomer]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

You'd have thought everyone would have realised it was me by now.. ffs.. thers only 4 million people in NZ and i've been here 10 yrs...!!!


Slow cunts !

[boomer]

It all starts here! Too many NZ riders think the road is their personal track.A track is not a road, on a road you can;'t get it wrong, go wide, come back and do it again.On a road you are most likely dead or injured if you go wide or off( as happens on a road.) P darth, please , have you ever heard a Govt minister, a Politician, a councillor, or a top cop say,"yes training in being a better, smarter, faster better able to to react to situations driver/rider is a good idea????????.I can tell you catagorically the answer to that question is NO. The last thing the Govt or Police want, is drivers/riders who can handle their vehicle well in an emergency, that would require ability, adaptability, speed and agility everyone of these things is total anethema to them.Lowest common denominator is their by line, make everyone go slower, accidents are less serious, road toll is down they're happy.
Katman is right,Stop these types and almost all motorcycle accidents will stop happening, overnight.
Ah! but that can't be right, it's too simple.
Think about this, two riders, different bikes, diffeent ages, different skill sets, they ride for a while they get faster and faster, the lesser skilled one misjufges a corner(sound familiar yet?) doesnt make it round, other guy stops goes back picks up a broken shattered human being.Goes home and parks his bike, In the morning he rides down the road sees another rider ahead of him, speeds up, catches up, rides alongside for a while, goes faster,a bit faster Today it's his turn to make the mistake!
Never for a moment considers that he's going to fall off.Too damnd stupid, arrogant and full of himself and his trackday abilities to ever consider it might happen to him.
This cycle of death and destruction goes on everyday and the common denominator is this.he rides fast, other rides look up to him, they want to be just like him.
The road and the other users on it don't exist just their stupid desire to ride faster than that guy!
It begins and ends right there.
Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition of what happens when someone comes of and ends up a quivering mass of raw mush and maybe just maybe they could become good sensible considerate riders like many others out there now.
Who grew up learning personal responsibility, respect for their fellow man and an appreciation of the fraility of the human body.

Some disconnect between what your typing and what you're doing.. your group ride history is fookin abysmal.

i forgot how much fun this place was/is.

I can race along the roads and go wide, have an oh shit moment,think fook that was close; go back and do that corner again cos boy it felt good. Laugh at teh beer stop how i went wide on the same corner i always do...

AND smile at how i'm still riding... and i'm still saying FOOK you and ya nanny state. if i wanna ride fast i will do.. just like if i wanna drive the car in the morning half asleep with a coffee in my lap.


go get a life.

[boomer]

Mostly though, attitude kills more people than any other single factor, whether it be bikes, cars, trucks or mopeds.

I've got a bad attitude and i've never killed any one !!! STFU u moron !

[The Stranger:Me]

You know, I find your attitude almost alarming, especially since you a mentor and helping teach other riders. I didn't get that ("being told what to do") at all from reading the message.

This thread was about a fatality, and shortly afterwards the discussion steared towards that attitudes of riders and how that could be leading to riders dieing. And then we get alarmist posts like yours effectively saying "I'm going to do whatever I want so fuck off". You aggressive attitude merely lend support to those who want to impose more regulation.

When you use a shared public medium, that being a public road, you have to have a certain degree of rules that everyone has to conform to. For example, in NZ you have to wear a crash helmet. We like to think these rules exist to promote the lifespan of the users. I like to think so anyway. I don't know if you accept this, or if you also say "fuck you" to the Government and ride without a helmet. You have to accept being told what to do.

I think, ideally, we all want minimalist Government regulation, so that we are free to make personal choices. However, everytime we have another rider down we tempt the Government into just a little bit more regulation to "limit" what we can do.

Know that when you use the public roads you don't just place yourself at risk, but also other users on the road. And if an accident happens it doesn't just affect those directly involved. It affects their families as well. It affects a lot of people. I think this is one of the main reasons we have regulation. Because so many people are affected.


So perhaps could I encourage you to reflect internally, and adopt a supportive attitude as opposed to the aggressive one displayed. We don't want aggressive attitudes carried onto the road. We don't want new riders entering the system learning aggressive attitudes. Know that you get nothing from a post but what you take away from it. So if you don't like the message, just don't take anything away from it.

As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy. And it is so true.


I'll now put on my flame suit, so you can exercise your right of reply. I don't think further discussion in this area will be helpfull, so I'll leave it at this.

The East Germans used the populace at large to help ensure people were thinking the right thoughts. The Chinese Too. Perhaps you are simply in the wrong country or time good citizen.

[boomer]

who gave me this rep..??? "I really hope your family doesn't have to go through the trauma of being visited by the Police to say you died in an accident. Perhaps you could say you haven't died "yet". Please don't be the cause of a rider down thread."

I/we just endured two years fighting cancer.. you think my family aint up for a fight?! get stuffed arse hat.

[bikemike]

Agreed

The poistion is illogical and downright stupid. But, that is their position.

This imbecility colours all road safety in this country. Since it is a Bad Thing for people to be taught (or to learn) how to drive or ride safely, it is necessary to assume that they will crash. Therefore the focus of raod safety is on making the crashes (which are considered inevitable) more survivable. hence, lower speed limits, seat belts , air bags etc. Doesn't work for bikes (doesn't really work for cars, either, but massively unworks for bikes)

I also agree with McJim: and, I'm another incomer who agrees with the general observation that our stats are high and our standards are very low here. That's a correlation that doesn't seem to need too much in depth study.

And apart from Mikkel's observation on the emptiness of our roads, I don't subscribe to the idea of 'NZ roads'.

Also I'd expand on the idea that the minimum driver/rider education and licensing standard is too low. That is, though I support Advanced instruction, that's not where the primary focus should be. The idea that some of this stuff is 'advanced' (and possibly elitist) is one thing that needs to go. Most of what we consider the basic advanced techniques need to be taught to probationers. And, along that road many more need to be allowed to fail. That's politically hard but necessary if we mean business.

The motivation to conform to expectations is very strong, even when we think we are bucking the system we usually aren't. The community around us drive like shit and we have no motivation to up our game to be accepted (and by accepted I also mean being ignored; not picked out for abuse or ridicule).

I'd therefore like to see the standard of Police, Courier, Taxi, Freight drivers all improved. I see all the usual stuff we complain about from these groups as in the general driving population, and ourselves. Inattentive, sloppy driving.

So in old-school talk, The failings are clear, the official attitude to 'advanced' instruction sucks, raise the bar and set a better example.

If I was paying for rider Instruction and I was measured on survival rate, I'd put my money here:

20% handling the bike and road surfaces
70% situational awareness
10% evasive measures
Use of speed? see all of the above

BTW -
Solo on M/C after 3 hours instruction at 16
Solo on Venture self-launching glider after just under 8 hours at 17 (exactly)
Solo in car after over 20 hours instruction - at 19
!! all backwards