A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

**Brian d marge** · 15th January 2010, 03:54

Testosterone , not a good thing among the poorly educated

Stephen

**The Stranger:Me** · 15th January 2010, 06:49

Originally Posted by bikemike

If I was paying for rider Instruction and I was measured on survival rate, I'd put my money here:

20% handling the bike and road surfaces
70% situational awareness
10% evasive measures
Use of speed? see all of the above

Relating to earlier discussion, what portion of that do you pick up on your track days p.dath?

**p.dath** · 15th January 2010, 07:07

Originally Posted by The Stranger

Relating to earlier discussion, what portion of that do you pick up on your track days p.dath?

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

I did some research on track and road based training. Check out my thread on an extensive multi-country report that I found:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...Rider-Training
It recommends both track and road based training (they go through the pros and cons of what they found in their research of each). They found the coaching style works best.

**MSTRS:Me** · 15th January 2010, 07:42

Originally Posted by p.dath

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

.

What would you like played at your funeral?

**shrub** · 15th January 2010, 09:06

Originally Posted by p.dath

95% Handling the bike
5% road surfaces
0% Situational awareness
0% Evasive measures

I did some research on track and road based training. Check out my thread on an extensive multi-country report that I found:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...Rider-Training
It recommends both track and road based training (they go through the pros and cons of what they found in their research of each). They found the coaching style works best.

That's a bloody good article and I'm in the process of printing it out. I thoroughly enjoy track based rider training, and do it as often as I can (in preference to plain old have a go days), but you're right, often little of what I learn improves my ability to ride a bike safely on the Queen's highway. I come away having had a blast and probably a little better at late braking or better able to take a specific corner etc, but none of that counts for anything when Mary Pajero doesn't see me because she's too busy stopping little Tarquin from smearing his organic chocolate on the leather upholstery.

I think there is a lot of value in teaching specific skills on a safe track environment that can be practised in the real world. For example, I learnt some good stuff on a Mainland course at Levels a year or so ago about what to do when things go wrong in a corner, and I have found quiet roads and practised it. A few weeks ago I came round a corner to find a pothole right where I wanted to be and instinctively did the stuff I'd been practicing. I also found myself overcooked in a corner the other day and didn't instinctively do what I knew I should do and nearly went dirtbiking, so since then I've been practicing. I've also been practicing panic braking since I saw Ewan mess that up, and yesterday it rained so I went out and did panic stops in the rain on greasy roads with tyres that are not far from dead. Anyone who is really good at something practices it until they can do it really well instinctively and hopefully when Johnny Commodore pulls out in front of me on a wet and greasy road I'll pull up safely or get around him.

I'm afraid there is a perception with a lot of riders that "skill" means the ability to go really, really fast round corners. I agree it takes a lot of skill to do that and it's a lot of fun - one of the reasons I ride a slow bike is because I like going fast too much and lack self discipline, but too many people focus on that skill at the expense of all others. The other day I was following a guy on a sports bike through some corners and he was riding hard. On right handers his wheels would be just inside the white line as he apexed, only problem was his head was in the other lane, and he did that frequently. I decided to drop back and let him go in the hope that he would slow down now that he didn't have to show that he was faster than the fat old bastard on the retro bike and didn't see him again. He could corner really well and on a track he would have been a star, but he wasn't riding for the road with cars coming the other way, gravel, potholes etc

**Mikkel** · 15th January 2010, 09:27

The main benefit of taking your bike to the track is the ability to get confident with the machine in a safe environment.

However, whether that will make you a safer rider or not ultimately comes down as to how you utilise that confidence on the road. If you use it as a reason to go faster than you did before you aren't safer - if you use that new-found confidence to provide a larger safety margin, then you will be a safer rider.

Knee-to-the-deck or front-wheel-waving-at-clouds are not the places you want to be in when shit hits the fan.

**shrub** · 15th January 2010, 09:38

Originally Posted by Mikkel

The main benefit of taking your bike to the track is the ability to get confident with the machine in a safe environment.

However, whether that will make you a safer rider or not ultimately comes down as to how you utilise that confidence on the road. If you use it as a reason to go faster than you did before you aren't safer - if you use that new-found confidence to provide a larger safety margin, then you will be a safer rider.

Knee-to-the-deck or front-wheel-waving-at-clouds are not the places you want to be in when shit hits the fan.

100% bang on mate.

**bikemike** · 15th January 2010, 09:48

Originally Posted by shrub

That's a bloody good article and I'm in the process of printing it out. I thoroughly enjoy track based rider training, and do it as often as I can (in preference to plain old have a go days), but you're right, often little of what I learn improves my ability to ride a bike safely on the Queen's highway. I come away having had a blast and probably a little better at late braking or better able to take a specific corner etc, but none of that counts for anything when Mary Pajero doesn't see me because she's too busy stopping little Tarquin from smearing his organic chocolate on the leather upholstery.

I think there is a lot of value in teaching specific skills on a safe track environment that can be practised in the real world. For example, I learnt some good stuff on a Mainland course at Levels a year or so ago about what to do when things go wrong in a corner, and I have found quiet roads and practised it. A few weeks ago I came round a corner to find a pothole right where I wanted to be and instinctively did the stuff I'd been practicing. I also found myself overcooked in a corner the other day and didn't instinctively do what I knew I should do and nearly went dirtbiking, so since then I've been practicing. I've also been practicing panic braking since I saw Ewan mess that up, and yesterday it rained so I went out and did panic stops in the rain on greasy roads with tyres that are not far from dead. Anyone who is really good at something practices it until they can do it really well instinctively and hopefully when Johnny Commodore pulls out in front of me on a wet and greasy road I'll pull up safely or get around him.

I'm afraid there is a perception with a lot of riders that "skill" means the ability to go really, really fast round corners. I agree it takes a lot of skill to do that and it's a lot of fun - one of the reasons I ride a slow bike is because I like going fast too much and lack self discipline, but too many people focus on that skill at the expense of all others. The other day I was following a guy on a sports bike through some corners and he was riding hard. On right handers his wheels would be just inside the white line as he apexed, only problem was his head was in the other lane, and he did that frequently. I decided to drop back and let him go in the hope that he would slow down now that he didn't have to show that he was faster than the fat old bastard on the retro bike and didn't see him again. He could corner really well and on a track he would have been a star, but he wasn't riding for the road with cars coming the other way, gravel, potholes etc

Bloody good post! All credit to you for taking the pressure off the guy in front.

I just remembered the Man-on-the-train story, from Angry White Pyjamas. Anyone heard / got it? I can't find it on Google.
IIRC - Basically newly graded Aikidoka finds himself with an opportunity to show his skills, only to be humbled by an old man who new that the best path is to not need and therefore to not use 'those' skills.

Much better to put most effort into staying out of trouble. All the other training for improvement in handling, evasion is all essential, and we should all do it - but it is secondary.

**p.dath** · 15th January 2010, 12:48

Originally Posted by MSTRS

What would you like played at your funeral?

Well, I think my handling skills are the area that needed the most work, which is why I have mostly done track days. Having said that, I've also used a mentor on-road quite a bit as well. I think they go hand in hand.
I have to admit to being a bit risk adverse. The AMCC ART track days really have been a huge help. Those who go riding with me have noted the big improvement over the last 12 months.

I done quite a bit of evasive measures training already. Some of the NASS sessions were really good for that. The NASS sessions don't tend to be very difficult (at least not at my current level), but when you do something repeatedly for an hour it just re-inforces it more and more. It also helps having someone watch you. It can be very hard to figure out how you can improve only through observing yourself.

I did some study on defensive "driving" course a while ago (based on the AA course), so I don't feel too bad in the situational awareness side.

I'm hoping to do the RRRS course in March, which will work on other areas, just not as focused.

Pretty much, I take up most opportunities available to me for additional training. They all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Haven't planed my funeral. Tossing up ether cremation or donating my body to science. I like the idea of donation better. At least someone else might benefit from any mis-fortune I suffer.

**MSTRS:Me** · 15th January 2010, 12:56

Originally Posted by p.dath

Well, I think my handling skills are the area that needed the most work, which is why I have mostly done track days. Having said that, I've also used a mentor on-road quite a bit as well. I think they go hand in hand.
I have to admit to being a bit risk adverse. The AMCC ART track days really have been a huge help. Those who go riding with me have noted the big improvement over the last 12 months.

I done quite a bit of evasive measures training already. Some of the NASS sessions were really good for that. The NASS sessions don't tend to be very difficult (at least not at my current level), but when you do something repeatedly for an hour it just re-inforces it more and more. It also helps having someone watch you. It can be very hard to figure out how you can improve only through observing yourself.

I did some study on defensive "driving" a while ago (based on the AA course), so I don't feel too bad in the situational awareness side.

I'm hoping to do the RRRS course in March, which will work on other areas, just not as focused.

Pretty much, I take up most opportunities available to me for additional training. They all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Haven't planed my funeral. Tossing up ether cremation or donating my body to science. I like the idea of donation better. At least someone else might benefit from any mis-fortune I suffer.

What I was getting at is...riding (esp on the road) is a package deal.
Arguably, situational awareness is the single most important part. I don't care how good your 'handling' skills are, if you take no notice of where you are in your lane and what is going on ALL around you. It's the one you didn't see that gets you.

**Eng_dave** · 15th January 2010, 13:25

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Testosterone , not a good thing among the poorly educated

Stephen

But unfortunately quite common.

**Katman** · 15th January 2010, 13:34

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Arguably, situational awareness is the single most important part.

Thought I'd quote it in case anyone missed it the first time.

**caseye** · 15th January 2010, 15:32

I'd agree with that, 100% well posted that man.

**Corse1** · 15th January 2010, 23:00

Originally Posted by shrub

My big three are:
1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.
2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.
3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

1 did not read all replies but has to be compulsary
2 Yep but generally with a bike crash they do not get hurt so doesn't really hit joe public where it remains in the memory banks.
3 Gear ain't going to save you from a fatal crash with the exception of a decent lid for head injuries. I know like many I've seen my mate in pieces after going under another vehicle.

There is another thread on here regarding group rides and the dangers. You can have all the rider training and all the gear but egos are hard to lose. I ride how I want to ride now and f**k everyone else. Want to comment on how I ride then lets go to the track.
I have a family that lets me indulge my passion even though they have no interest. I know everytime I go out for a ride they think the worst. I owe it to them to be sensible. Shit I'm 47 and I have only just started thinking this way a year and a half after the tears ran from my eyes when my wife met me in Whakatane when my mate died.

Its better to get there in one piece than not at all. There are plenty of well run track days that let you get the boy racer out of you...can't wait to get to Hampton Downes..........
The slower you go the longer the ride and the longer the enjoyment of our two wheeled passion.........
Well thats that rant over!!