Countersteering: Putting theory to practice, my experience

[MSTRS:Me]

Your observation is 100% correct. You can't counter steer or counter balance below about 30km/h. Don't know the reason. Probably something to do with the gyroscopic forces being too weak or something.

I think it's a little lower than 30kph...closer to 20? Whatever, you are about right on the reason, though. Cornering at 'speed' requires the bike/rider to lean, primarily to counteract the centripetal force that would have you otherwise drift to the outside of your turn, and secondarily to counteract the gyroscopic effect of the wheel that would have you otherwise continue in a straight line. Something like that anyway. Someone in a white labcoat c/w pocket protector will be along shortly to clarify the physics of it all...I only know enough to make it sound good.
At low speeds, the forces generated (gyro- and centri-) are not great enough to require that counteracting lean, so a simple turn (and hold) of the bars is all that is required to change direction. Of course, it is entirely possible to lean the bike into the turn, which will help turn tighter, but the rider must correspondingly lean away from the turn to keep the bike balanced.

[Drew]

Ya what? Condescending? Prick? Poor mentor?
You, sir, seem to have a problem with comprehension.
You also seem to have a problem with keeping a bike on the track, from what I've seen of your numerous attempts at racing.
One wonders whether you might try steering with the bars, instead of your 'fabulous' body steer style. I'm sure you will find yourself staying on the track side of the tyre wall for a start.

For fuck sake man. Actually read what I am writing, rather than assume you know what I'm saying and this will go a lot easier.

Yes, you are being condescending. Look it up and then read what you have written and tell me I'm wrong.

I am not saying I turn a bike with my body rather than counter steering, never even hinted it.

I am saying that what Keith wrote is an incorrect statement. Just because the bike with solid bar cannot be turned whilst holding said bar, does not mean a bike cant be turned with body position at all. That's it, nothing else, the long and the short of it.

What you have seen of my racing attempts? It is fair enough to call me a crasher I suppose, but unless you wanna come show me how great you are on the track, you can go eat shit before trying to give me advice.

[tcpdump]

Of course, it is entirely possible to lean the bike into the turn, which will help turn tighter, but the rider must correspondingly lean away from the turn to keep the bike balanced.

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now. When do you lean with the bike and when do you lean the other way?
Do you lean with the bike on higher speeds and "counter lean" on low speeds?

Thanks.

[sinfull]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now. When do you lean with the bike and when do you lean the other way?
Do you lean with the bike on higher speeds and "counter lean" on low speeds?

Thanks.

No !!!!!!!!!

[p.dath]

If you are going around 30km/h or faster, lean with the bike in the direction you are turning. So push down/lean on the left bar, and lean left, to turn left. You don't really need to worry about leaning with your body for a little while when your starting. It will happen naturally. Pushing down on the bar (or pulling the other bar) is what you'll want to learn first.
My experience is it takes about 3 months of riding before you can start to appreciate counter-steering.

Below 30km/h (or perhaps a tad lower as suggested by MSTRS) you steer by actually turning the bars, and you tend to be vertical. There isn't enough force for you to counteract by leaning.

[MSTRS:Me]

I am saying that what Keith wrote is an incorrect statement. Just because the bike with solid bar cannot be turned whilst holding said bar, does not mean a bike cant be turned with body position at all. That's it, nothing else, the long and the short of it.

Whoa! Calling Keith Code wrong is very brave of you.
I've not read his book, but from what I understand of the fixed bars experiment, the idea was to deny bar instigated lean to turn the bike. Since push/pull on the bars wasn't gonna work, the riders had to lean, and indeed the bike did turn. But not enough at the speed they were doing to actually get around the corner they were trying to negotiate..
We all know that a bike can turn by leaning alone, but not effectively for real-world riding. So how is Keith wrong?

[MSTRS:Me]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now. When do you lean with the bike and when do you lean the other way?
Do you lean with the bike on higher speeds and "counter lean" on low speeds?

Thanks.

The 'counter lean' is only useful in situations like carpark handling skill sessions, where you wish to turn the bike in a full-lock circle. In the real world of riding on the road etc, it isn't necessary.

[Mikkel]

Whoa! Calling Keith Code wrong is very brave of you.
I've not read his book, but from what I understand of the fixed bars experiment, the idea was to deny bar instigated lean to turn the bike. Since push/pull on the bars wasn't gonna work, the riders had to lean, and indeed the bike did turn. But not enough at the speed they were doing to actually get around the corner they were trying to negotiate..
We all know that a bike can turn by leaning alone, but not effectively for real-world riding. So how is Keith wrong?

You guys are just arguing semantics now.

What does Keith Code mean when he says you can not turn the bike? If he means you can not turn it all, then he is - as Drew says - incorrect. And so are those who agree with Keith Code's explanation of physical reality.
If Keith, by "can not turn", means that you can not negotiate a corner effectively - in most circumstances - without applying counter steering, then he is correct. But the people who interpret this as to mean "can not turn the bike at all, without counter steering" are still incorrect and have merely misunderstood Keith.

Now let's move forward.

[BMWST?]

This is probably the most convincing article I have read about the fallacy of body steering, and why you need to lean to steer:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

the front wheel needs to be able to "steer" but you can lean and turn a motorcycle without actually touching the handlebars.The front wheel is probably doing what it would do if you actully steered with the bars....

[p.dath]

This is outside my area of knowledge, but I decided to read up more about it. The best article I found on the subject was, not surprisingly (now that I have found it), on Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

I think this quote sums it up best:

At the same time, the rider technique of applying pressure to the handlebars to initiate a lean is not always necessary, since, on a sufficiently light bike (especially a bicycle), the rider can initiate a lean and turn by shifting body weight, called counter-lean by some authors.[1][2][3] Documented physical experimentation shows that on heavy bikes (many motorcycles) shifting body weight is less effective at initiating leans.[4]

So basically, the heavier the two wheeled vehicle is, the less chance you have of being able to turn using only body weight. So perhaps a super-light 50cc trick motorbike with a slip of a girl rider might be able to do it, while a 200kg cruiser with a 100kg rider might make it next to impossible.

[FlyingKiwi]

A bike will automatically lean if you are counter-steering right!!! More counter-steer= more lean.

[p.dath]

Let me add this quote as well:

It is often claimed that two-wheeled vehicles can be steered using only weight shifts. While this is true for small "trim" inputs to direction, complex maneuvers are not possible using weightshifting alone because even for a light machine there is insufficient control authority.[6] Although on a sufficiently light bike (especially a bicycle), the rider can initiate a lean and turn by shifting body weight,[1], there is no evidence that complex maneuvers can be performed by bodyweight alone [4].

There are some mathematical formulas for those interested in disputing it (don't ask me - I don't know).

[p.dath]

Wow, this is the best [and most believable] explanation I have seen of why counter-steering works. You need to read the bit beforehand about how a motorcycle is an inverted pendulum, and the theory or turning. I'll try and quote the most important bits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

A single-track vehicle such as a bicycle or a motorcycle is an inverted pendulum—it will fall over unless balanced.

A bike can negotiate a curve only when the combined center of mass of bike and rider leans toward the inside of the turn at an angle appropriate for the velocity and the radius of the turn ...

When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually via the handlebars, in the opposite (counter) direction. This moves the pivot point (the wheels' contact patches) out from under the center of mass to establish the lean angle for a turn. While necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable as speed increases.

Hence, to turn to the right, the rider first throws the bike off balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this straight line.

So basically counter-steering works by deliberately unbalancing the bike for a short period of time, so that your centre of mass is shifted out of alignment with the bike and placed over the inside of the corner. And then you supply sufficient speed to prevent the bike falling over, effectively pulling you around the corner.

[Mikkel]

Wow, this is the best [and most believable] explanation I have seen of why counter-steering works. You need to read the bit beforehand about how a motorcycle is an inverted pendulum, and the theory or turning.

It's all good - but belief has got nothing to do with it...

[p.dath]

A further summary about no-hands steering (same article):

No hands

This is how countersteering works when riding no-hands. In order to turn left, a rider applies a momentary torque, either at the seat via the legs or in the torso that causes the bike itself to lean to the right, called counter lean by some authors.[3] The combined center of mass of the bike and rider is only lowered, of course. However, if the front of the bike is free to swivel about its steering axis, the lean to the right will cause it to steer to the right by some combination of gyroscopic precession (as mentioned above), ground reaction forces, gravitational force on an off-axis center of mass, or simply the inertia of an off-axis center of mass, depending on the exact geometry and mass distribution of the particular bike, and the amount of torque and the speed at which it is applied.[1][9]

This countersteering to the right causes the ground contact to move to the right of the center of mass, as the bike moves forward, thus generating a leftward lean. Finally the front end steers to the left and the bike enters the left turn. The amount of leftward steering necessary to balance the leftward lean appropriate for the forward speed and radius of the turn is controlled by the torque generated by the rider, again either at the seat or in the torso.

To straighten back out of the turn, the rider simply reverses the procedure for entering it: cause the bike to lean farther to the left; this causes it to steer farther to the left which moves the wheel contact patches farther to the left, eventually reducing the leftward lean and exiting the turn.

The reason this no-hands steering is less effective on heavy bikes, such as motorcycles, is that the rider weighs so much less than the bike that leaning the torso with respect to the bike does not cause the bike to lean far enough to generate anything but the shallowest turns. No-hands riders may be able to keep a heavy bike centered in a lane and negotiate shallow highway turns, but not much else.