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Thread: Motorcycle accident myths - A public presentation on the facts

  1. #196
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    Didn’t do much for me either. Most of the recommendations make sense, if the MOT ever see them, but I am not convinced by the main argument. It takes two parties to have a ‘MVMA’ as the Prof calls them and it only takes one of them to ensure the crash doesn’t occur (in most cases, before I get slammed). Knowing that bikes have a smaller profile, are less visible and more prone to the SMIDSY syndrome is one thing. Expecting the car driver to change his behaviour/attitude is a bit much. Shit, they pull out on other cars more than they do bikes.

    If we wait for driver training to improve then you can forget about anyone currently holding a licence improving. It will be the next generation and by then most of us will be too old to ride anyway. I’ll shut up now before I go off on one and start to sound like Katman.

    I am glad someone who was at the presentation explained the slide with the Rocket and the 250’s. If that truly is the way ACC decided on 600cc being the magic levy limit then it really is a bigger crock of shit than I thought it was. I know how much model and engine size is missing from the crash data, I offered my services to the MOT to fix it up and they weren’t interested. I guess if they were they would do it themselves. Without it though anything you hear about engine size and crash relation is complete cock.

    Couple of points about analysing crash data. This paper was based on multi vehicle crashes in Auckland and Canterbury. These are predominantly urban crashes and due to that fact will include a high number of commuter type bikes. (An assumption, I brought Chch data home rather than Canterbury). If single bike crashes were included then I would expect the engine size to be higher, if more rural crashes were included I would expect the engine size to be higher as well. I certainly don’t agree with the ACC view but I also don’t think you can extrapolate the figures presented here to give you an accurate national picture. IMO engine size is irrelevant when it comes to most car vs bike crashes in urban areas. Funny though that Figure Four in the slides shows that bikes over 1000c actually made up a greater proportion of bikes involved in these crashes than 250’s. If you are going to debunk a myth you need to use all the information available and present it clearly. Unfortunately because this presentation was based on only specific crash types in limited areas it doesn't do that, it just adds more wood to the fire.

    Personally I would rather have seen two or three months data for the whole country analysed instead of a full year for just two areas. Each Police district and NZTA region has their own way of doing things which can impact on the quality of data being fed in to CAS. With a smaller sample area the influence of the people involved is greater.

    So yeah, when I saw this presentation mentioned I was kind of hoping for something to dispel the myths and present the facts like the title says. We all know the myths, but I don’t think it has helped us get any closer to the facts, other than those related to car vs bike crashes in Auckland and Canterbury. And I don’t live there so don’t really care about them.

  2. #197
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    Lets face it, lately there have been far too many "serious" motorcycle accidents!

    Irrespective of the facts, figures and trends etc, lately there have been far too many accidents involving motorcycles!

    One poster even commented that the news reports sounded like the accidents were "scripted" by an ACC representative!

    I have resolved from now on, to try and always ride and behave on my bike as if the whole of NZ was watching and judging the "motorcycling world" on "my" performance!

    Why? Because "that" is the only thing that I have total responsibility and control over!

    Wish me luck, I hope I don't let you guy's and gal's down!

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrider View Post
    Irrespective of the facts, figures and trends etc, lately there have been far too many accidents involving motorcycles!

    One poster even commented that the news reports sounded like the accidents were "scripted" by an ACC representative!

    I have resolved from now on, to try and always ride and behave on my bike as if the whole of NZ was watching and judging the "motorcycling world" on "my" performance!

    Why? Because "that" is the only thing that I have total responsibility and control over!

    Wish me luck, I hope I don't let you guy's and gal's down!
    Katman may now wish to have your babies
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  4. #199
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    I was searching for road condition information (due to current flooding) and came upon this.

    http://www.nzta.govt.nz/traffic/ways...cle/index.html

    Frankly, I don't see anything hostile or derogatory toward motorcycling in this page, just simple helpful facts of motorcycling!

    Quite encouraging really!

    Are we inclined to be a little over sensitive about how we look to other road users?

    Robby Burns the poet springs to mind. "Would that God the gift to give us, to see our selves as others see us".

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrider View Post
    Frankly, I don't see anything hostile or derogatory toward motorcycling in this page, just simple helpful facts of motorcycling!

    Quite encouraging really!

    Are we inclined to be a little over sensitive about how we look to other road users?

    >
    Yes. We are. Most of the public don't have any real sentiment about motorcyclists , one way or the other.

    It's the usual bell curve thing.
    10% of people are bikers, or have-been/will-be bikers/pillions etc
    20% don't ride themselves but are positive towards it (old ladies , in particular) .
    10% really hate bikes Sometime because of some personal tragedy involving them, sometimes because they are just haters, who are also hostile to old drivers, young drivers, truck driver , women drivers, Asian drivers etc.
    20% are disapproving (middle aged women in particular), without actually being hostile. Usually the "oh, so dangerous" thing.
    And the rest of the public don't really care, don't have any opinion. They'll criticise a rider who does somethign they think inconsiderate or stupid, but just as they would an old driver, a young driver, a truck driver , a woman driver, an Asian driver etc.

    I don't believe there is any conspiracy to try to ban bikes. Various bureacrats and police (not to mention doctors) are critical of motorcyclists because of our accident and injury rates. But they just want us to crash less, not be banned

    We shouldn't read deep conspiracies into the ACC levy hike. ACC are a bunch of bean counters. They don't want to put our levies up because they want bbikes banned, they want to put them up because (in their opinion) we are not paying enough. Which is, sort of, true, especially if your life revolves around beans. If the average levy was $5000 they'd love us, cos we'd be paying more than we cost.

    Most, if not all, of the negativity (and the ACC levies, too) could be made to go away by one very simple thing. Motorcyclists not crashing so much!

    So, y'all stop falling off y' bikes. OK ? It's easy. Just make sure the rubbery black bits stay down below, the pink squishy bit stay up top. Then everybody (almost) will love us. or, at least not care about about us.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  6. #201
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    The transport fleet does tens of thousands of kms per year and bikes hardly reach tens . Govt Depts will always look at it that way and will always put bikes on the back foot.

  7. #202
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    Just for your interest, I asked the AA about their opinion on the study. The reply was quite long and below. They said they are going to arrange a meeting with the Professor, as some other benefit may come out of it.

    Thanks for this Philip. I have had a chance to read Charles Lamb’s paper and while I don’t want to diminish the importance of his conclusion that improving conspicuity could reduce some multi-vehicle motorcycle accidents (MVMA), I don’t find his report or remaining conclusions particularly helpful when his analysis excludes over a third of all motorcycle accidents, namely solo crashes. He seems to be implying, as a result of his selective analysis, that the current policy formulation in the area of ACC m/c levies or m/c road safety generally (the former being a subset of the latter) is flawed, which I think applies more to his paper. Consequently, I read his statement (p2) that differences in interpretation of accident statistics offer the potential for distorting and misrepresenting the accident situation and that the “conclusions that should be drawn from a dispassionate analysis of the data” forms the basis of his research, with more than a hint of irony. No policy analysis, the AA’s included, would exclude such a significant proportion of m/c accidents and the causes thereof when trying to draw conclusions, social cost estimates, and recommendations about them. If he restricted his comments to solely MVMA then his conclusions about visibility are valid but he cannot draw conclusions about all m/c accidents from his selective analysis.

    I also find the comments in his opening slides somewhat inflammatory and its not clear what the purpose of such a piece of research is, certainly not what it purports to be and I don’t think it makes a positive contribution to the debate.

    I would be concerned if motorcyclists read this report and assumed that conspicuity is the silver bullet. By his own analysis it is only a factor in 38.6% of MVMA accidents, which equals less than 25% when you include solo m/c accidents in which visibility is probably not a factor (except lack of on the riders part). He also notes in his PowerPoint that 40% of m/c accidents are caused by other road users – which means 60% are more likely to be the fault of the rider? How will conspicuity address this majority? In terms of setting policy we should also consider the causes of the other 75% of m/c accidents where conspicuity isn’t a factor. He seems to try to diminish the value of other safety initiatives, or enforcement of crash causes like speed and alcohol, yet our analysis of CAS (serious and fatal m/c crashes only), which you have, shows poor handling is the most common cause (18%), followed by speed (16%) and alcohol (9%), combined these are much greater than visibility which is the opposite of what he concludes.

    I note he refers to the “87% of motorcyclists at fault” quote in the paper, and attributes this to the AA in the PowerPoint, although he does not acknowledge the source or try to verify it. I don’t know where he got it from, probably copied email correspondence, but where we have used that figure it has been with the proviso that it was an analysis of the very same CAS data Mr Lamb uses in his report, but only relating to serious and fatal m/c crashes. This was in response to the ACC debate last year, the point being that not all m/c crashes lead to ACC claims. Yes, it was a selective use of data just as he has done, but more relevant in this case to try to understand ACC’s policy setting. I hope he doesn’t think that ACC use non-injury or minor injury m/c crashes to set levies as these are unlikely to impose costs on ACC, yet he has included such crashes while excluding a third of all m/c accidents, serious or not. An example is his revelation that there are more accidents involving 21 year olds on 250cc ‘bikes. Could it be that several accidents involving young, fit males on low incomes impose less costs on ACC than a single accident involving a well-paid older male on a big bike? Could that explain ACC’s differential levy? You can’t conclude that from crash data alone.

    I also have concerns with some of the data he has published. He states that the number of m/c injury crashes per 10,000 ‘bikes was 121 in 2008, and attributes this to MoT (and CAS), yet the MoT crash report puts this at 142 (the same under-reporting applies to previous years’ data). He offers no explanation as to why this is different and I am concerned his data, especially being attributed to the MoT, will be taken as accurate when the graphs he derives from these underestimate what is a worsening trend, the very problem road safety advocates are trying to address (also, if he compared the same data with the trend for passenger vehicles, his graphs would look a lot worse). I am very surprised Mr Lamb has published this data and attributed it to MoT without querying the variance and stating why his figures underestimate previously published authoritative and peer-reviewed data by a significant margin. This brings into question the validity of the remaining CAS analysis in his report.

    I could also add that I find his choice to restrict individual analysis of CAS reports to Auckland and Christchurch odd. These have huge urban networks (and safer motorways) and so would include a large number of lower speed accidents – again the sort of accidents that don’t result in big ACC costs (if that was the original driver for this research). Our analysis of CAS (all road crashes) shows a majority occur on the open road which, at higher speeds, are obviously more serious, so only reviewing the data from two major urban areas distorts the true picture of serious crashes in NZ. A better sample would have been the Waikato or Manawatu for example which gives a better urban/rural split.

    Neither Mike nor I know Mr Lamb but we will arrange to meet with him to understand some of the parameters he has chosen for this research and also the reasons for differences in data values from the same source, as well as having a general discussion about m/c safety and local and international research which he may be able to assist us with.

  8. #203
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    Ah. I forgot about the AA. Yes, they *are* trying to ban bikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    Just for your interest, I asked the AA about their opinion on the study. The reply was quite long and below. They said they are going to arrange a meeting with the Professor, as some other benefit may come out of it.
    So in a polite and diplomatic way he basically said this Professor is talking more shit than ACC and the AA combined.

    Good analysis on his part. Then again a 12 year-old with half a brain could see that too.

  10. #205
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    Instead of the smoking gun motorcyclists were hoping for methinks the professor has given us a water pistol.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    Instead of the smoking gun motorcyclists were hoping for methinks the professor has given us a water pistol.
    Which we should fill with sulphuric acid and use to squirt Nick Smith in the eyes.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spearfish View Post
    The transport fleet does tens of thousands of kms per year and bikes hardly reach tens . Govt Depts will always look at it that way and will always put bikes on the back foot.
    Sorry but this is how you measure.
    What does something or someone do?
    How often do they do it?
    How often is there an incident?

    Do you have a better way to compare motorbike crashes to other vehicles on the road?
    Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrider View Post
    I have resolved from now on, to try and always ride and behave on my bike as if the whole of NZ was watching and judging the "motorcycling world" on "my" performance!
    Explain to me why this is regarded as being more important that actually surviving on a day to day basis? To my mind this is much moreimportant, and logically should be how EVERYONE should ride from day one (not just now).
    The one thing man learns from history is that man does not learn from history
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  14. #209
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    Interesting that the AA should come out with "solo accidents" and "selective analysis" when the Professor show how they selected only this first column from the data table, and if there was a motorcycle in that column they took that as a solo accident disregarding the following columns in the data.
    Its not the destination that is important its the journey.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by avgas View Post
    Sorry but this is how you measure.
    What does something or someone do?
    How often do they do it?
    How often is there an incident?

    Do you have a better way to compare motorbike crashes to other vehicles on the road?
    I think we are on the same page?
    I felt the way of comparing crash rates as just a % of the total vehicle fleet is off the mark compared with km travelled per crash.
    And considering there are more bikes than there are riders for them it doesn't paint a good picture.

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