Are they really out to kill us?

[R-Soul]

Wow!
Getting the facts straight before putting mouth into gear (figuratively speaking).
We don't see that very often in this asylum.

I have to admit I was impressed.

[FROSTY:Me]

In another thread Katman you hit the nail squarely on the head.
For new or born again bikers you need to KISS it because overcomplication means they have to think through options before they react.
Its simple and to the point --Ride as if everybody and everything else is out to kill you.
A person will (should) react in a personally lifesaving manner if thats their mindset.

Instilling that mindset into new bikers may I agree longterm have issues with attitudes.
But frankly its a risk I'm happy to take if it means that the rider concerned stays alive long enough to have time to come to your very valid conclusion.

No they aren't all out to kill us. Some (very few) would be happy to cause injury even arguably death to riders. Some will cause injury/death due to being oblivious to riders.
Most will at some point do something silly that may if the stars are alighned just wrong will cause death/injury to riders.
As an older/more experienced rider I've thought that through and come to those conclusions myself.
I apreciate that a lot of the time too you are correct it isn't "them" thats the problem its the rider concerned.

[Berries]

Wow!
Getting the facts straight before putting mouth into gear (figuratively speaking).
We don't see that very often in this asylum.

Don't be too impressed. I have access to the same stats that the MOT use and know how to interrogate them properly so was just doing it out of interest.

[Katman]

Don't be too impressed. I have access to the same stats that the MOT use and know how to interrogate them properly so was just doing it out of interest.

I'm looking forward to hearing your verdict.

[Katman]

For new or born again bikers you need to KISS it because overcomplication means they have to think through options before they react.

I don't see "treat every car driver with extreme caution" as any more complicated than "treat every car driver as though they're out to kill you".

The only difference between them is that the first one is far less likely to engender a sense of contempt.

And it is that sense of contempt that is creating the 'us versus them' mentality.

[Owl]

A more harmonious relationship between everyone on the road would work heavily in our favour and could be helped into fruition by looking at car drivers as more than just "fucking cagers".

For sure!

[Hotchefnz]

I'm not the best rider, I ride within my limits, yep have been known to have a "yipee" and after 26 years of riding and driving without an accident call myself lucky.

I'm curteous to fellow drivers, riders and animals where needed - but am seriously considering trading my helmet in for a FKN cage - why?

Because of the Fkn idiots out there who see a bike rider and think "choice race time" in the past 6 months I've had more scares than I have in the past 20 years - people have no fkn idea that bike riders actually want to live, want to go home and see our kids, and go home and jump on the other bike for a ride.......

I came close to having a drunk run up my arse a couple of months ago.
After that came the stolen plates on a different car treying to run me into the cheese-cutters.

So while I hate the idea - thought okay I will make myself more visable and went out last Saturday morning and brought a strada bike jacket - FLURO - understatement.
Nice jacket, good price ( by the way visit TSS for a bargin ) and thought okay cant Fkn miss seeing me now. - WRONG.

Monday afternoon travelling on highway 47 back into Turangi and this Fkn idiot starts tail gating me on the windies above Waihi village - now the road is narrow, its icey as shit on these roads at the moment so slow down to let him pass - nah he dont want to do that.

As we go into the windies he closes right on my arse and as I brake before entering the bend this Fkn idiot taps the rear of my bike sending me and "the love of my life" down the road and through a 4x4 sign post.
Then the Fucker doesn't even stop and does a fkn runner.

Bike is yet to be acessed, but the under body is pretty banged up and 6 months of waxing and cleaning is a scuffed broken mess BUT walked away only bruised, sore - but I'm fucken sure if I get back on a bike or car and another Fkn ignorent prick scares the shit out of me again I will ensure the fucker goes home to change his fkn underpants cause I'm sick of the bullshit "sensible" bike riders are having to put up with.

To many innocent riders are being killed by Fkn bad driving, ignorent drivers, and kids wanting a race - I'm happy to do time, cause if another fucker does this or comes close to doing this to me again I'm gona follow the prick and show him some LOVE.

[PrincessBandit]

I'm not the best rider, I ride within my limits, ...........

...................... cause if another fucker does this or comes close to doing this to me again I'm gona follow the prick and show him some LOVE.

Sorry, zoned out there for a bit. Are you sure you don't have some impossible-to-resist message taped to the back of your jacket? You know, like old fogies used to to do in their youth like sticking "kick me" on the back of some unsuspecting dude's shirt?

[sugilite:Me]

Humans make mistakes, ride accordingly

[dipshit]

The idea that "they're out to kill us" is what produces the "fucking cagers" attitude that leads to the animosity that is adding to the risks that we face on the road.

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.

Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

[_Shrek_]

I don't see "treat every car driver with extreme caution" as any more complicated than "treat every car driver as though they're out to kill you".

The only difference between them is that the first one is far less likely to engender a sense of contempt.

And it is that sense of contempt that is creating the 'us versus them' mentality.

I do agree with your statment Km, & use that, but when you get ignorant bugga's both old & young, male & female, fail to give way on rounderbouts even though you're doing a stoppie so you don't get run down, it's dam hard not to think the latter especially when they say i didn't see you when if fact they were just to bloody lazy to stop, or as i've heard for the 2nd time in 37 years of riding you're on a bike....

[davebullet]

People are out to kill me, whether I'm riding or not.

[Dare]

And encourage those riders that think it is ok to throw tantrums in traffic and kick mirrors off and doors in on any car that pisses them off.

Even the rises of "streetfighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "streetfighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

Welcome to popular culture and marketing 101. Sex and violence sell.
No one buys a drink called sex on the beach expecting to get laid, why the assumption that you would buy a streetfighter in order to fight?

[motorbyclist]

firstly, i don't think that using the mantra "treat cagers like they're out to kill you" necessarily leads to the "fuckn cagers" attitude that KM is talking about. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the link in concrete.

When I started road riding (after a few years on dirt) my old man said "treat everyone like an idiot; they're blind and will do the stupidest thing possible at the worst possible times"

I've since shortened that to "assume they looked but didn't see you and ARE going to make that stupid move".

It's worked to avoid many near misses happening in the first place, and helped when near misses do occur (although some of those I would put down to dirt riding experience; ie riding competence)

However, I'm still partial to a good "Fucking wanker tried to run me over etc etc" rant. They're mostly fucking idiots, oblivious to their surroundings and the danger they pose to others - seriously, I doubt it's just a small minority... during the "school traffic" hours I'd say these idiots are in the majority of road users and this is even visible from sitting in a cage.

I've also seen a lot of total fuckwits riding motorcycles creating a hazard for themselves and antagonising traffic, and many scooter riders are on par with the average cager (suggesting credence to the earlier posts mentioning passion). This doesn't help the attitude for cagers towards us.

So, while I would agree that "assume drivers have not seen you, prepare for the worst" is a more useful mindset than "assume he's going to try and knock you", I wouldn't say that without the latter we'd all be good friends with useless drivers.

All in all, I'd estimate about 80% or more if the near misses and accidents I witness could have been avoided given an actual driver training regime, especially for motorcyclists in both single and multi-vehicle accidents. The "defensive driving" course is a joke.


Can't we all just gang up on those dirty cyclists instead? Pricks somehow got green spots at the front of traffic lights in the last 5 years so they can hold up traffic while we've had to sit between cars for decades(!) despite accelerating faster!

[DMNTD:Me]

Even the rises of "street fighter" bikes seems to be another wank trend popular amongst motorcyclists now.

What exactly is a "street fighter" fighting...???

And why that mentality in the first place...???

I guess it's a bit like guys that right hyper/super sports bikes on the road....mostly "attitude" with no real gains in so called 'real world' riding. Lets face it,the speed limit is a mere 100kmph.

If everyone road all that they 'needed' on the road all that we would see would be 400cc pootle machines