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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #2686
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    …….......The difference in inlet timing came about because I mistakenly thought shortening the inlet duration was what was required to cure the blarrrrs. But the problem was cured by lengthening the inlet tract inside the plenum..............
    The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self, so please note, "The Blars Are No More", I have said this all before, several times and so we don't need any help to cure them.

    Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests. Other issues have delayed its development, at Taupo a damaged gear box gear, at Mt Wellington, rider injury, the oiling problem, and the building of a new engine and bike.

    Power Run, "there are no blarrs" and the carburetion is good.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

    There is also a very valid reason why the 24/28 diffuser carb or any other kind of carb needs a conventional jet when the carb is used conventionally and would need a much larger jet when used un-conventionally with the plenum.

    Very easy startup and the clue about why a larger jet is required, and it is "no spit back"......... from the plenums carburetor, so what do you think could be happining? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

    I will post updated pictures of all the bits and pieces including the difference in inlet tract length that cured the blarrs when I get into work today, as everything is kept there.......

  2. #2687
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self, so please note, "The Blars Are No More", I have said this all before, several times and so we don't need any help to cure them.

    Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests. Other issues have delayed its development, at Taupo a damaged gear box gear, at Mt Wellington, rider injury, the oiling problem, and the building of a new engine and bike.

    Power Run, "there are no blarrs" and the carburetion is good.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

    There is also a very valid reason why the 24/28 diffuser carb or any other kind of carb needs a conventional jet when the carb is used conventionally and would need a much larger jet when used un-conventionally with the plenum.

    Very easy startup and the clue about why a larger jet is required, and it is "no spit back"......... from the plenums carburetor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

    I will post updated pictures of all the bits and pieces including the difference in inlet tract length that cured the blarrs when I get into work today, as everything is kept there.......
    Ok, I am trying not to fustrate you here TeeZee, but where I think the confusion is is what I would deem an "all gear run"- Sure, it revs out in first gear..... But what happens when you go for 2nd 3rd on so on, going by your figures you posted, there is indeed a "hole" in the rev range, so much so that when you change gears, an the revs dip back in to the "hole" it takes an eternity fir the engine to get back into the power..... Running 45 meters in first gear down a drive way is not a test for a tunes engine, that is why I continually ask for video of the dyno run or some laps round the track.

    Like I say TeeZee, there are people from all over the world following this, and the guys I introduced to this thread over here are not impressed, and just the same as me, they cannot understand why you won't post a video of the bike on the dyno (you say it works- I say, ok, show us.)...... prove to me it works, and I will leave.

  3. #2688
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    Like I say TeeZee, there are people from all over the world following this, and the guys I introduced to this thread over here are not impressed, and just the same as me, they cannot understand why you won't post a video of the bike on the dyno (you say it works- I say, ok, show us.)...... prove to me it works, and I will leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self...........Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests..............
    I don't have to prove it or impress anyone, who cares what your friends think........ I publish my work out of interest and to enjoy sharing with civil people.

    But great, your friends, its just a thought......but maybe one of your friends could impress us by providing you with some literature or a photo of a turbocharged 60's or better yet 50's small competition European 2-stroke so you can prove your own claim.

    I would very much like to see one as I just love those small racers as I also have an F5 bike myself...............

  4. #2689
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    Page 180 links collection, I will post them here when I have collated them..........

  5. #2690
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    The current Development of the plenum

    The plenum idea was to work around the restriction imposed by the 24mm carb. And the theory is that as the motor only sucks for half the time, then the carb at WOT has twice the time to fill the plenum. So the total air flow to the motor could be greatly increased.

    There are other advantages to, like the throttle response is softer and the motor gets to suck through a much bigger straw.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have been making a plenum and conventional arrangement with adapter plates so that different carbs and setups can be tried quickly for true back to back dyno tests.

    We have a range of carbs to try, 24mm original, 24 OKO flatslide, 24/28 diffuser carb, 24/34, diffuser and 24,38. Some of these carbs flow very well on the test bench but wether they work in real life is to be seen. Intuitively I expect the plenum would show the best comparative result with the most restrictive carb and give less relative benefit with the better flowing carb's as they would have choked the motor less when used conventionally.

    The white spacer is there to allow a longer inlet tract and to space the cover off the bell mouth. The cover was a bit close before, less than one inlet diameter, so was probably restricting the inlet a bit.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    The plenum with the cover off, the green Scotch Bright is a cushion for the blow off valve. The motor with or without the plenum is prone to backfiring when overreved. I don't know why but I have heard that Go Karts do it too.

    So when the engine backfires there is a pop from the plenum and carb bell mouth.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    When I first made the plenum I made it with a very short inlet. I had brought into the, shorter the better inlet idea. But this proved wrong and to be a problem. It was the source of the Blarrrs thing at 4-5,000 rpm. and I wrongly thought the inlet duration needed shortening but that had only marginal effect. Lengthening the inlet was the answer.

    Every one knows there is a relation ship between Tuned-Length and RPM but there is also a relationship between Inlet-Tract-Length and Diameter and Inlet-Closing-Point, all three things have to work together.


    The plastic tube is my answer to the oiling problem. The oil drops out as the fuel evaporates, just like it is supposed too. But unfortunately it mostly happens in the plenum, so my answer is to just suck it all up again through a tube with a filter on the end of it.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lengthening the inlet tract was what cured the blarrrs.

    The interesting thing is the plenum carb needs a very large main jet as the air flow is all one way into the plenum, unlike a conventional setup where the air spits back and then gets sucked in again, thereby picking up at least three loads of fuel with its three passes past the main jet.

    The bike has been ridden around the track and works very well. The 24/28 diffuser carb that Sonic_V got me thinking about and the plenum work together OK, no holes or dips, they just drive nicely.

    The only thing that I have noticed is that you can get onto the gas early as it comes on the throttle quite gently, a bit like a 4-stroke does.

    I imagine that will be an advantage on a tight track like Mt Wellington where you don't want that typical 2-stroke catchiness as you peel into a corner.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But untill my FZR/GP125...........

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looks like Chambers one......... there won't be any videos or dyno charts or whatever else........

    The plan is to get my bike up and running, then tuned up and tested on Johns dyno.

    And just in case anyone is wondering..... I don't give a rats-toss whatever anyone else thinks and certainly couldn't give a f#@k if they expect me to impress them or prove any thing.

    I am here to enjoy good company and intelligent and constructive exchange about small 2-stroke tuning and racing and the company of those new and old who are actually out there doing it.

    If anyone wants take up my time looking for charts, data or special videoed dyno runs to prove that it works, then when I have got my bike up and running they can pre-pay for the dyno time at a local place of their choice.........

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

    ...... or bribe me with a good photo or two of a pre 50's/60's turbocharged small European race 2-stroke if they or their friends have got anything........

  6. #2691
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    I know this might be a silly idea, but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there and I assume you would be able to see it as the air will be mixed with fuel which will give it a misty look?

    Just curious.

    -Sketchy


  7. #2692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer View Post
    ..........but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there...............
    Thanks Sketchy

    Thats an interesting idea, I will see what I have got about the place that I can use ..........

    I expect we would see typical spit back from the inlet tract inside the plenum, much like you would have seen if it was a conventional carburetor and with your view port idea we could see it and how bad it is.

    Anyway it would be great bling....................

  8. #2693
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The current Development of the plenum

    [FONT=Arial Unicode MS][SIZE=2]

    Lengthening the inlet tract was what cured the blarrrs.

    The interesting thing is the plenum carb needs a very large main jet as the air flow is all one way into the plenum, unlike a conventional setup where the air spits back and then gets sucked in again, thereby picking up at least three loads of fuel with its three passes past the main jet.

    [FONT=Arial Unicode MS]The bike has been ridden around the track and works very well. The 24/28 diffuser carb that Sonic_V got me thinking about and the plenum work together OK, no holes or dips, they just drive nicely.[/

    What is this about the air passing 3 times passed the main jet?

    I honestly have never heard about that... Can you elborate a bit?

    Is this only on you bike, or do all Two strokes do this?

    Does the air go into the engine, taking the fuel with it, the the disc valve closes, the incoming air "bounce" off the now closed valve, return passed the main jet, picking up more fuel with it, and then enter the wrong way out the carb, into the atmosphere, then, when the disc valve opens again, the negative pressure of the engine create a depression, so the positive air behind the carb ( now some of which is charged with fuel) again pass through the bell mouth, passed the emus lion tube, picking up more fuel as it does, then in through the open disc valve and into the engine.

    Is this the 3 three times charge you talk of?

    This is new to me.
    Am I correct in my breakdown of this?

    Because this is new to me.

  9. #2694
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    Well I'm confused, is this sarcasm? Of course there are conditions where it passes through 3 times, but only when well out of the tuned rev range where the disc is still open too long (or piston port) which is why engines of these types load up more than reed valves esp if they run long inlet periods. Cure; keep it revving, or less inlet duration. But you know this. so. . . ?
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  10. #2695
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Well I'm confused, is this sarcasm? Of course there are conditions where it passes through 3 times, but only when well out of the tuned rev range where the disc is still open too long (or piston port) which is why engines of these types load up more than reed valves esp if they run long inlet periods. Cure; keep it revving, or less inlet duration. But you know this. so. . . ?
    Yea, poorly worded sarcasm.

    Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times, it was worded that way by Teezee, and I really am trying to keep this thread going in a constructive factual way believe it or not.

    I actually want to see how this plenum goes.

    I note that it does this with or with out the Plenum, and TeeZee mentioned that air in a Plenum only goes one way, I wonder if that is indeed the case, are the symptoms the same, for different causes, or, something else.

    The other thing that has me thinking hard is the current length of the bell mouth in relation to the plenum, as it is so close to the cover, what effect does this have on the airflow, I have no idea.

    I have experimented with intake manifold lengths quite a bit, (as have others), and no two people been able to tell me the same data, and I would have thought in a Plenum situation, shorter was indeed better. As TeeZee did tzo start with.

    I found on a 125cc, 142mm was best for a piston window reed set up, and others (disc valve), 15mm from the disc... Having that longer manifold now requires a bigger plenum volume to allow for the length, how does that affect the whole set up?

  11. #2696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer View Post
    I know this might be a silly idea, but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there and I assume you would be able to see it as the air will be mixed with fuel which will give it a misty look?

    Just curious.

    -Sketchy
    Sounds interesting. Try videoing it and play it back on slow motion.

  12. #2697
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    Yea, poorly worded sarcasm.

    Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times, it was worded that way by Teezee, and I really am trying to keep this thread going in a constructive factual way believe it or not.

    I actually want to see how this plenum goes.

    I note that it does this with or with out the Plenum, and TeeZee mentioned that air in a Plenum only goes one way, I wonder if that is indeed the case, are the symptoms the same, for different causes, or, something else.

    The other thing that has me thinking hard is the current length of the bell mouth in relation to the plenum, as it is so close to the cover, what effect does this have on the airflow, I have no idea.

    I have experimented with intake manifold lengths quite a bit, (as have others), and no two people been able to tell me the same data, and I would have thought in a Plenum situation, shorter was indeed better. As TeeZee did tzo start with.

    I found on a 125cc, 142mm was best for a piston window reed set up, and others (disc valve), 15mm from the disc... Having that longer manifold now requires a bigger plenum volume to allow for the length, how does that affect the whole set up?
    Mate, you sound like you might have a clue or two. Maybe if you read your posts BEFORE you publish them and removed some of the agressiveness, others might be more inclined to listen to what you have to say.
    Just sayin'

  13. #2698
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    A final note on carburetion: In all two-stroke engines intake pulses are very strong
    and the sonic wave activity considerable, which has effects both good and unpleasant.
    On the credit side is that the high-amplitude pulsations do make it possible to obtain very
    high specific power from the mechanically-simple piston-port engine by blocking
    blowback during the second half of the intake period. But these same pulsations also
    have a terrible effect on the carburetor's ability to accurately meter fuel, by leading a
    large part of the air drawn into the engine past the spray nozzle three times: Air passes
    the nozzle moving into the intake tract, then reverses direction as a result of the pulse
    generated when the intake port chops shut, and passes the spray nozzle a third time as the
    next intake period begins. This may sound slightly improbable - but there is absolute
    evidence it is happening in the fog of fuel one sees dancing in front of the two-stroke
    engine's carburetor.


    just a quick search http://www.vintagesleds.com/library/...20Handbook.pdf
    page 142 in the book or 152 in the pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times,
    by my understanding you have that backwards
    "Instructions are just the manufacturers opinion on how to install it" Tim Taylor of "Tool Time"
    “Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know.” - Cullen Hightower

  14. #2699
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    Sounds interesting. Try videoing it and play it back on slow motion.
    Talking to Thomas today and he sugested that you use an engine timing light to see the fog infrount of the carburetor
    and that it should be positioned in the carburetor bell mouth at peek power/torque
    "Instructions are just the manufacturers opinion on how to install it" Tim Taylor of "Tool Time"
    “Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know.” - Cullen Hightower

  15. #2700
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    Ahh you changed it before I could quote you. But what are 'normal conditions'?

    in a race engine one would hope that you are always in the (I hate this word) Powerband. In a road engine with minimal openings & shallow coned pipes then the effect will be reduced but spread over a huge range so it won't be a real problem.

    If you were silly enough to trail ride a GP100, maybe with some knoblies, you would note an unpleasant phenomena on closed throttle down a long hill & you come upon a small log that you want to heft the front wheel over. You open the throttle & the wheel bounces off the log as the engine goes bluuuurrr.

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