Biker down. Yep I just got bowled...

[Katman]

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum...

Hey Katman, how about I find out where you ride regularly and pull out in front of you in my big four wheel drive, with a distance of less than 30 metres, see if you have time to stop?

It is a requirement for your bikes WOF that it can stop in less than 7 metres from 30kph.

If you can't stop within 30 metres from "40-45kph" then best you find yourself a safer form of transport.

[shrub]

best you find yourself a safer form of transport.

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

Nice work.

[Katman]

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

There goes your selective reading again.

[Luckylegs]

Yup T boned in a cage he hit me in the drivers side door door pillar hit me on the side of the head. Not stationary at the time but not moving very quickly. I thought I was in the right didn´t even get a lawyer for making the police statement. If there was no witness it would have been a 50/50, as there was an "independant" witness to say I failed to make my intentions clear (indicate) I was at fault - careless driving points on my licence.

Interesting dude, Ive been thinking about the "Rural" scenario (which like I posted earlier I hadnt really been considering when thinking about this). Im not entirely sure, but I suspect I might do it in these cases. I'll be damm sure to check next time if I do and if I aint give it a go.

Like I say though, I think I do, and the reason why (when I dont around town) is the changeability at country road speeds. Im confident in urban areas that I am aware of the situation around me and that realistically that situation will not change appreciably to warrant a final check wheres as in the country, if slowing to turning speeds and following traffic is still doing 100+ things will change much quicker.

[shrub]

Im confident in urban areas that I am aware of the situation around me and that realistically that situation will not change appreciably to warrant a final check wheres as in the country, if slowing to turning speeds and following traffic is still doing 100+ things will change much quicker.

Bloody hell, you really ought to get off the road before you kill yourself - or someone else. In town things change ALL THE TIME because there are hundreds of other road users all doing their own thing. In town you need to be extra, extra vigilant ALL THE TIME.

[Luckylegs]

...Might I suggest you take up catching the bus and sell your bikes before you kill yourself?

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. Discourage young guys from getting into bikes so when old bastards like you and I stop riding motorcycling dies.

Nice work.

..........

[onearmedbandit]

but they seem to have forgotten that some crashes are outside of a rider's control.


.

I don't think you'll find this is actually the case. Years ago when I was about 20 I started in car sales for a very successful dealer. I remember we had a meeting one day talking about conversion numbers, ie clients on yard to test drives, test drives to sales. My employer stated that it was important we remember that everyone that came onto the yard was a buyer. I, from my own vast experience of maybe 6mths, disagreed, and gave examples of people who had come onto the yard who were not buyers (I was being overly defensive). I'll never forget the look on his face. I thought long and hard about why I had upset him, and then it dawned on me. If I believe every person who walked onto the yard is a buyer I set myself up better to make the sale. It was one of the best lessons I was ever taught.

And the same can be applied to riding. Sure, not every crash is avoidable, or my fault. But...if I believe they are in the first place I have a better chance of acting correctly and therefore avoiding an accident altogether.

I may be wrong, but I believe this is a part of the message Katman is trying to send. Believe that you are responsible for everything that happens around you, and you more likely are to be.

[Luckylegs]

Bloody hell, you really ought to get off the road before you kill yourself - or someone else. In town things change ALL THE TIME because there are hundreds of other road users all doing their own thing. In town you need to be extra, extra vigilant ALL THE TIME.

Remember though we're talking about the sitaution where another road user is whizzing past you on right of the centre line while you are indicating and either slowing to make or waiting to make a right hand turn (To be clear: This does not mean lane change, overtake or any other time you might need to change your position on the road, JUST TURNING at an intersection or driveway).

I wont disagree there could be a one in a million type situation like what you encountered on your bike. But frankly thats akin to the "stay in gear at the lights" argument to avoid being rear ended. It kinda makes sence but is not compulsary, not everyone does it and not everyone who does doesnt is labelled as a threat on the road.

[MSTRS:Me]

... He had been at a training day upping his skill...

Nope. At a social get together, where the opportunity was taken to talk about some of the theory behind one particular riding style. Just a chat between 2 individuals - 1 relative newbie and 1 experienced crustie.

Bloody hell but there are some morons on this forum...
There sure are

For what it's worth, I wish to personally thank all the KB members that have been keeping my spirits up with kind messages, they have been greatly appreciated.

Support, commiseration, realism. I hope that is the message that you take from this thread. Forget those that would have you fall on your sword...

... some crashes are outside of a rider's control.

Nope. Only accidents (read: acts of god) are beyond anyone's control. There is always something that can be done to avoid a crash. Thing is, it is the choice/s made that determines the outcome. A more experienced rider may have made a better choice. Therefore avoiding a crash. Probably.

It saddens me to see people turning on a young biker when he comes here to get a bit of support and encouragement after an off that wasn’t his fault.

I agree. About the first bit. As for 'not his fault' - possibly debateable. He hasn't received a traffic ticket, so we can assume that he is not primarily at fault. But don't ignore the part he did play, in so far as making the choice of how to respond that he did.

[Katman]

And the same can be applied to riding. Sure, not every crash is avoidable, or my fault. But...if I believe they are in the first place I have a better chance of acting correctly and therefore avoiding an accident altogether.

I may be wrong, but I believe this is a part of the message Katman is trying to send. Believe that you are responsible for everything that happens around you, and you more likely are to be.

And the earlier that concept can be drummed into new riders the better.

I fear that by the time a rider gets to shrub's stage nothing much will change their blindness.

[That looks like fun]

When I was just a puppy learning to drive trucks cars and bikes I was fortunate enough to be told a good thing. Attitude is the "most" important thing.
I could approach any given situation and my attitude would determine my behaviour. Example, I could approach an intersection ready to go or I could approach it ready to stop
Today we as a society seem to focus on altering the behaviour and expecting the attitude to alter as a result.
If we follow this dogma (as I suspect katman does) we will achieve excellent short term results. Its the control system. If everyone did what "I" told them we would have no problems
Long term result is eventually people build an immunity and no longer take any responsibility for there actions, after all why should they? they were only doing what they were told.
There is little or no buy in to the system so the man on the soap box has to stand a little taller and bang his drum a little louder. Even though the message may contain some truth because of the delivery it becomes lost even resented and scorned.
My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

[Katman]

My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

I believe he will have learned a whole lot more from this thread than if it had just been filled with choruses of "Oh, you poor thing. Don't worry, it wasn't your fault".

[neels]

And the earlier that that concept can be drummed into new riders the better.

Unfortunately just telling them it was their fault and nothing else useful doesn't help much with that.

But anyway, your point (even if it is delivered badly) is correct that most accidents are avoidable in some way, there will always be some where there is no time or no options.

So I'll ask the question about a minor accident I had myself, where a van with a trailer turned across my lane while I was at a bit under 100k's around a left hander. I managed to get way with only being clipped by his bumper as I passed in front of him, with the bike still upright and the wife on the back with a sore foot. I'm pretty sure I couldn't have stood the bike up and stopped in the 30ish metres from when I saw him still in his lane to where I got hit, the van and the trailer were blocking the road other than the metre or so on the left that I sneaked through, so the question is; What could I have done to have completely avoided the accident?

[MSTRS:Me]

My guess is (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong Phreak) that Phreak has learned a lot from this accident. He will have looked at what he could and should have done better and will be a better rider for it
And he will have learned bugger all from this forum.

I'm sure he learned a lot from his experience. How many of us have had similar learning experiences.
It is my hope that he has also learned some stuff from this thread, stuff that he may not have thought of by himself.
Combining the 2 will be what makes him a better rider in future.

[That looks like fun]

I believe he will have learned a whole lot more from this thread than if it had just been filled with choruses of "Oh, you poor thing. Don't worry, it wasn't your fault".

Yep, those you poor things nothing you could have done are about as useful as the beatings with the "its all your fault" stick.

Every situation needs to be looked at from every contributing factor, not just one side. I accept that I only have influence other one side of an incident.

That is why I promote working on the attitude not the action. If people buy into a system then they will choose to do what is right because they want to, not because someone told them they had too.