Biker down. Yep I just got bowled...

[Katman]

On a more cheerful note - NUMBER 2 in the "most replied thread"...!

You're welcome.

[Coolz]

Sorry to hear about your accident Phreak and thanks for posting .what a great thread this has turned into,I wish this kind of mentoring was avallible when I was starting out. If you weed out the drongos hiding in the shrubbery you will find alot of good advice.I hope you take some of it to heart.It has made me reaccess some of my riding skills and I have been on the road forty years and hold eight classes of licence.We never stop learning eh.Good luck with the rebuild and good onya for A.T.G.A.T.T.

[shrub]

1. By being more aware of the attitude of the "about to turn" car. It wouldn't have been coming towards him at the flow of traffic rate then turned out of the blue... there would have been signs that it was about to happen.

2. By being more aware. Sitting to the side of the traffic infront rather than behind it allowing a faster escape route.
Or lane splitting to avoid being exposed.

Good points - one minor issue regarding my son though, he was 16 and had been riding about a year. That kind of skill takes years and years to acquire, so in his case the crash was unavoidable because he didn't have the skill. And as for sitting at the side of the traffic - there are two schools of thought there, and many won't do it because if you're in the side of your lane sure as eggs is eggs you'll get some turkey pulling up alonside you, and there you are trapped in a cage of cars. As for lane splitting, I do it where I can but not if the lights are about to go green and sometimes there just aint the room to slip through.

I stand by my position that some crashes are unavoidable, especially if you take into account situational factors like rider experience. I maintain that Phreak's crash was not something he was able to avoid, so was not his fault. The car driver almost certainly didn't indicate for 3 seconds before turning, and from what I gather didn't indicate at all and made a sudden and unexpected turn in traffic without checking his mirrors - pretty bloody awful driving in my books.

But there are still people here who will be baying for phreak's blood for scaring the poor car driver and denting his car. Not sure why they're on a biker site because that kind of attitude don't fit any of the criteria I hold for being a biker.

And katman, you have taken on yourself a mission to make people more accountable for their own safety - an admirable task indeed, but do you think Phreak will listen to you now?

[Katman]

And katman, you have taken on yourself a mission to make people more accountable for their own safety - an admirable task indeed, but do you think Phreak will listen to you now?

He'd be silly if he doesn't.

[shrub]

Shrub, I think you are still missing the difference between 'blame', ie fault, and 'responsibility', which in this instance does not automatically mean 'fault'. It just means taking responsibility for your actions due to the ineptitude of someone else. It's no good blaming someone else, when you are the one with the paralysed arm. I say that because in particular because when I had that accident back in '97, I was told while I was in hospital that diesel had been spilled on a few of the corners around where I crashed. I honestly don't believe that it played a part in accident, but even if it had, it would've been still me riding over it. I can't go around blaming others for something that, ultimately, was my responsibility.

No, I understand the difference. Ultimately we all have the responsibility to ride or not to ride, and because riding is inherently dangerous we are all ultimately responsible for any crash we have involving a motorcycle. It comes down to degrees of responsibility, and in this case I believe Phreak had little responsibility for his crash. if he had been riding at 120 kmh, then it would have been almost all his responsibility, but from what I understand he was playing by the rules and apart from going around instead of stopping, he did nothing wrong. And going around is an entirely valid way to deal with a hazard and often the best way.

[shrub]

He'd be silly if he doesn't.

No, human. Even if you made all the sense in the world (and surprisingly often you do make sense) your tactic of attacking him without all the facts has made him think you're a moron so I'd be very surprised if he'll listen to you.

I'm only here to waste time and shit stir so I really don't care what people think of me, therefore my often smart arsed approach doesn't matter, but you're here to try and get people to change the way they ride. Have you considered being a little less judgemental? You might actually do a lot of good.

[swbarnett]

2. A mate was sitting in traffic in broad daylight and a car slammed into him because the driver was distracted by a child in the back seat and hadn't realised the traffic in front of her had stopped. He had seen her coming in his mirrors (good things to use) and had started to try and get beside the car in front of him but didn't have time. How could he have avoided that crash?

Don't be there. This is one reason, albeit a small one, that I almost always lane split.

[ynot slow]

Lesson 1-obtaining a license doesn't automatically mean you can drive/ride.

Lesson 2-if you do bin and post here,be aware you will get you dickhead it was all YOUR fault,to you poor bugger etc.

If you can take the good from this thread,along with constructive critiqueing(cool word eh)from others,maybe the next time(heaven forbid)a vehicle pulls out/doesn't see you results in avoidance,I think this thread has opened eyes up of many,yep accidents can be avoided in most times,but there is the odd time we crash.

Many years ago an old guy told me as I started my apprenticeship"sonny you never stop learning,and when you do it means others are drinking ya piss at ya funeral"good words for all aspects of life.

[NUTBAR]

No, human. Even if you made all the sense in the world (and surprisingly often you do make sense) your tactic of attacking him without all the facts has made him think you're a moron so I'd be very surprised if he'll listen to you.

I'm only here to waste time and shit stir so I really don't care what people think of me, therefore my often smart arsed approach doesn't matter, but you're here to try and get people to change the way they ride. Have you considered being a little less judgemental? You might actually do a lot of good.

well said. not much one can add to that.

[shrub]

If you can take the good from this thread,along with constructive critiqueing(cool word eh)from others,maybe the next time(heaven forbid)a vehicle pulls out/doesn't see you results in avoidance,I think this thread has opened eyes up of many,yep accidents can be avoided in most times,but there is the odd time we crash.

An idiot pulled out without looking, giving Phreak 2 options:

1. Go around. In favour of that approach is that it's usually quick and I was always taught that on a bike you do everything smoothly. Against it is the risk that the other vehicle was going to do a U turn.

2. Hit the brakes. The advantages there are you'll be the irritated stationary guy not the irritated guy with a broken bike and a broken body. Against that option is that you need to check that there isn't someone up your arse before you hit the brakes, the road surface may be marginal/oil /white lines etc, and yes, I know you're supposed to constantly check your surface, but what if you're too busy looking at the idiot who's pulled out in front of you?

Both options have their merits, and both have their drawbacks. Phreak had a fraction of a second to make a choice and he made an entirely valid choice. When someone turns left you don't expect them to immediately do a U turn, and I believe the car driver wasn't indicating so why wouldn't he go around?

It was one of those situations where probably the only rider who would be guaranteed to make the right decision was Katman. I might well have made the decision to go around, and I have been riding a few more years than Phreak.

[Katman]

An idiot pulled out without looking, giving Phreak 2 options:

Really? According to Phreak the guy said he did see him and that there was plenty of room.

Both options have their merits, and both have their drawbacks. Phreak had a fraction of a second to make a choice and he made an entirely valid choice.

Really? Phreak has already mentioned the distance of "about 30 metres". That would suggest plenty of time to act in a safer manner than overtaking the vehicle.

When someone turns left you don't expect them to immediately do a U turn, and I believe the car driver wasn't indicating so why wouldn't he go around?

Really? Even Phreak hasn't said the driver wasn't indicating. I think you're just clutching at straws.

[MSTRS:Me]

Phreak had a fraction of a second to make a choice and he made an entirely valid choice.

From the map of the area and his description of who was where, I'm not so sure that you can draw that conclusion.
True, he had to make a decision to either brake or go around. In hindsight, going round was the wrong choice, in this case. And I'm almost certain that braking would have been the right choice...but as I said earlier, I wasn't there.

[shrub]

as I said earlier, I wasn't there.

Nope, the only person who was there was Phreak, therefore none of us (except of course Katman) are qualified to ascribe blame to Phreak. What is not in question is that the car driver displayed appalling decisions that resulted in a fellow motorcyclist having a crash.

[Pascal]

Nope, the only person who was there was Phreak, therefore none of us (except of course Katman) are qualified to ascribe blame to Phreak. What is not in question is that the car driver displayed appalling decisions that resulted in a fellow motorcyclist having a crash.

Wait a second. On the one hand you're saying nobody is qualified to ascribe blame to Phreak because nobody was there except him. Yet, you're turning around and judging the cager for his decisions when you weren't there.

Bit of a logical disconnect for me there as given the hazy recollection of events along with the immediate, blame-the-other-fella instinct nobody really knows what happened. Perhaps not even Phreak.

So at the end of the day - another biker got bowled. It sucks, especially now that there is timeout for Phreak from riding in this bloody amazing weather. I've been out three times today, looking for any excuse to just head out.

But at the same time - lessons to be learned. My first instinct when I read post number 1 was to ask "Why not go around the left?" The other car was moving from left to right. Principal direction is to the right, thus it seems logical when analysing it that going into the blank space it might be heading into is more dangerous. Can't say I'd have done it though. As somebody pointed out, we've been taught not to undertake. And the car could equally well have been wanting to turn into a driveway to the left 20 meters down the road. Or pulled over when it noticed the motorcycle bearing down on it. Or ... who knows?

Either way, it's interesting reading the comments. Different opinions off what seems like a fairly simple accident. Braking seems to be the general opinion based off what is assumed about the accident.

[shrub]

Wait a second. On the one hand you're saying nobody is qualified to ascribe blame to Phreak because nobody was there except him. Yet, you're turning around and judging the cager for his decisions when you weren't there.

Bit of a logical disconnect for me there as given the hazy recollection of events along with the immediate, blame-the-other-fella instinct nobody really knows what happened. Perhaps not even Phreak.

OK, these are the facts as relayed by phreak:

1. The car driver pulled out from a side road in front of phreak and turned left meaning he had to take evasive action.

2. The car driver then made a U turn despite there being a motorcycle behind him.

i know in this PC world of KB it's considered unacceptable to dare criticise car drivers, (yet OK to call them cagers) but that is what I would describe as appalling driving.