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Thread: Read it. Pay attention.

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    I've never had an accident and I've always contributed to whatever incident I've had.
    *Shrugs* not really relevant, dude. What might be relevant is the size of your contribution.

    Look, I get pissed because I see the other end of your premise, accident victims, (I can see your hackles rising already) getting abused because they didn’t take ALL adequate steps to prevent the accident. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that driver behaviour is the single most controllable factor. At least my behaviour is most easily controlled by me.

    But any accident has a vast array of causal factors that must all switch true before the accident occurs. Oh yes, on the face of it there’s culpable negligence involved in all of these:

    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    It is NOT an accident when someone falls asleep at the wheel, it is not an accident when someone crosses the centre line, it is not an accident when a drunk driver does what drunk drivers do, it is not an accident when someone runs a red light, it is not an accident when someone reverses over a child.
    But in spite of being aware that most people semi-frequently fail to take prudent precautionary measures on the road I don’t believe the majority of accidents are so cut and dry. I think most of them are the result of a set of factors of which driver error is not only not the principle factor but falls some way down the list in terms of contributing factors.

    So while failing to obtain a warrant of fitness is utter heresy worthy of outcry in the local rag of your choice I doubt very much if it’s likely to be a contributing factor in any subsequent accident. It MIGHT be, but it’s unlikely. To the point where the difference is statistically impossible to measure.

    Look at any accident and you’ll be able to list the major contributing variables, some of them will be environmental, some will be vehicle related and some related to driver behaviour. There’ll be others outside those groups no doubt, but of the last group; some would have been amenable to mitigating strategies by the driver. Of those just a few might be considered lacking in due care.

    In fact I suspect a tolerably low percentage of accidents are those where the driver behaviour elements are genuinely and clearly culpably foolhardy. I guess if you could describe every behaviour less than immediately and specifically dangerous but which nonetheless MAY contribute to an accident you’d have the basis for a list of proscribed behaviour. If you converted that into legislation and policed the living fuck out of it then you’d certainly have an impact on the crash rates, because the only people driving or riding would be those hardened criminals that didn’t give a fuck for the rules. Certainly none of the numerous and present company would consider driving or riding, it’d be impossible not to transgress. This is the path I think we’re on.

    Which is a pity, because modern transport systems rank up there with modern healthsystems and modern engineering as heavyweight contributors to our quality of life. In fact I’d go so far as to suggest they contribute a shitload more in terms of overall life quality and life-time than they cost.

    “There’s no such thing as an accident” is just a slogan, a silly one at that.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    “There’s no such thing as an accident” is just a slogan, a silly one at that.
    Not entirely silly - but perhaps a little optimistic.
    Would you argue against "Accidents are quite rare" ?
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98tls View Post
    Sadly lately it seems after causing carnage they just walk away.Mind you we live in a country that sees fit to lower the driving age,give licences to people that cant speak English let alone read it, then theres the gaps between any meaningful tests for elderly drivers.
    Lower the driving age? WTF? I thought that they were RAISING the driving age!

    I've been in accidents that I could have avoided had I acted differently and I have been in accidents that I could not have done anything to avoid (though the other drivers could have). But I've never been in a deliberate crash incident. Accident = not deliberate, but of course that doesn't mean not preventable. If drivers paid more attention and drove with more care then there would be less accidents. Some may say it is just unlucky to be in an accident, but the more care you take the more lucky you seem to be.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by riffer View Post
    You're still not getting it. If there's NOTHING you did to contribute to the incident, and there's NOTHING anyone else did to contribute to the incident, then you might have a point.

    But I bet in every road incident, there's something SOMEONE did that contributed. Therefore its not an accident.

    Jim - you're right.
    Yes someone usually does something that contributes to a crash....usually an error of judgment of some sort....to fast for a corner, looked but did notsee (did not look hard enough)....but an error of judgment does not turn a crash into an intentional act as you are saying. It is like the difference between Murder and Manslaughter....one is intentional the other is accidental...

    Although in my books a drink driver who kills in a crash should be penalized the same as a murderer...

    I see three factors to be sized up in a crash...
    1) At fault yes or no?
    2) Accidental or intentional? (If intentional then criminal)
    3) If accidental then apportioning liability, a sliding scale. Where at one end of the scale we have...
    "he is responsible but there was absolutely nothing he could have done to prevent it"And at the other end we have ..."He was Drunk, stoned, tired and driving at 170kph through the school zone"

    I think in this thread some are throwing crashes caused by varying degrees of stupidity and misjudgment in the same bucket as deliberate acts of intentional violence...The intent is different.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    Would you argue against "Accidents are quite rare" ?
    No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

    And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  6. #51
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    I would see an unforeseen mechanical catastrophe or medical misdaventure as an accident......but bugger all else.

    And no, drunkeness does NOT count as a 'medical misadventure'!
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
    " Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

    And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.
    We all take risks ... because of "it wont happen me" syndrome ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    No. It's not even down to semantics, incidents with inadvertant outcomes are accidents, simple as that.

    And no, I don't think all road accidents are avoidable in the sense that "if only I'd been more carefull it wouldn't have happened". We're not built that way, Men in particular, we take risks, we can't help it.
    Ah, did you miss my earlier post, where I differentiate between 'accident and 'crash' ?
    Perhaps your interpretation of the two is not the same as mine.
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    Ah, did you miss my earlier post, where I differentiate between 'accident and 'crash' ?
    No, it's just that it's nonsense. The two words are certainly distinct, have different meanings, you seem to be suggesting they're simply slightly different shades of the same thing?

    Query: can one have an accidental crash?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    Perhaps your interpretation of the two is not the same as mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Can we agree that most unfortunate incidences are really really regrettable and leave it at that?
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    The two words are certainly distinct, have different meanings, you seem to be suggesting they're simply slightly different shades of the same thing?
    No. Short of actually saying it, I mean an accident is in the realms of 'Act of God' whereas a crash is not...
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    And no, drunkeness does NOT count as a 'medical misadventure'!
    Not even if 'er indoors plies me with bubbles, in spite of hours of dedicated application to the Bourbon?
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    No. Short of actually saying it, I mean an accident is in the realms of 'Act of God' whereas a crash is not...
    Ah, then yes, our understanding is at variance. I take an accident to mean an unintended event, nothing more. No Gods required.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Ah, then yes, our understanding is at variance. I take an accident to mean an unintended event, nothing more. No Gods required.
    An accident is indeed unintended. But surely it goes further than that?
    If it could have been foreseen, planned against and/or avoided, but wasn't, then happened, is it really an accident? Or is it more correctly described as a crash (or event)?
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    An accident is indeed unintended. But surely it goes further than that?
    If it could have been foreseen, planned against and/or avoided, but wasn't, then happened, is it really an accident? Or is it more correctly described as a crash (or event)?
    To what ends? How far would you push that reasoning? Would you have us carry out an in-depth risk assesment before each move? How much time and effort do we spend now to avert the one-in-a-million chance? And yes there is an answer to that, and everyone's answer is different and only slightly amenable to control.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

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    So how many of this years crashes are the result from the efforts of a mythical deity?


    Why is it I got emotional over those miners and donated a little money to the trust fund but just shrug my shoulders at 400 people being killed needlessly on our roads. where is their trust fund, media coverage, etc?
    Fark that's four hundred people!!...dead!!

    Fixing the top 10 black spots will just expose the next top ten, then once fixed, the next top ten.......but we wont fix the attitude to driving/riding through black spots..ever!
    "Your talent determines what you can do. Your motivation determines how much you are willing to do. Your attitude determines how well you do it."
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