ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

Attachment 247722



When TeeZee first talked about fuel passing the main jet three times. SS90 was most adamant that it couldn’t possibly happen as he had never seen a carb fog at max power on a 2-stroke, you know, real life experience and all that.

And he made his usual song and dance about having to have real Industry experience to know what your talking about.



This is TeeZee’s bike making 27-28 hp complete with carb fog at max power. If its not fuel passing the main jet at least three times then what is it, maybe SS90 the Industry Man himself could tell us.

Attachment 247723

After seeing the fuel line being sucked down in the vid, TeeZee added the filter/header tank, it works a treat and keeps the line full.

I have posted the first one already but here are two other examples of three times past the Mainjet

Everyone must sure miss Neil .
Because no doubt there have been a lot of shots fired at time over the years.

First one is Speed and how to obtain it (Most likely Phil Irving) (RIP)
The second one is John Robinson (RIP)
The third one is A Graham Bell (NIR)

AS all three are from Books and Not the new fangled internet they might even be true? (Unless Neil disagrees that is)

Then again they were not the industry respected man Neil is!!!

Just because they designed a lot over world beating motorcyles and F1 car engines as well and sold a few hundred thousand books and countless Mags.
WTF would they know about Vespa's. Pah likely mere amateurs at best aye Neil.

That doesn't make sense at all. It is not a Vespa

[TZ350]

Somebody asked about the Aprilia's inlet disk diameter. From memory I would say it was 126 mm.

Optimized disk inlets do not generate pulses: you open the disk when the crankcase pressure is equal to the pressure just outside the disk. Opening it any sooner would cause a loss of mixture to the outside world; opening it any later would be a waste of time*area.

You close the disk when the inlet flow has come to a stop. At that moment the pressure at the outside face of the disk will be equal to the pressure in the crankcase, but it will be higher than the atmospheric pressure, so there will be some blow-back, but that does not come out of the crankcase (assuming your closing timing is spot-on); it is just mixture feathering back from the high-density zone outside the disk.

For that matter, every conventional inlet system (disk, piston, reed) will show the same blow-back tendency. And it may not be even visible from the outside; maybe the cloud of blow-back moves just a few centimeters and never really exits the inlet tract.

By the way, closing an inlet disk too early (or revving the engine higher than the inlet system's frequency would like to) will generate serious blow-back because then the closing disk interrupts an inward-bound flow which will violently bounce off the disk.

You can observe this very nicely on a dyno: looking into the carburetter you can see the fuel spray exiting the mixing tube and curving towards the crankcase. But rev it high enough and you will see this curving change into a steep front of mixture.

I have posted the first one already but here are two other examples of three times past the Mainjet

Frits has given a good explanation of the reasons for fuel stand off in a rotary valver. Its also a clue to more power too, because if the stand off is at max power rpm, then it points to the possibility of closing the inlet a little later.

... closing an inlet disk too early will generate serious blow-back because then the closing disk interrupts an inward-bound flow which will violently bounce off the disk. You can observe this very nicely on a dyno ...

I too was surprised Neil wasn’t onto this himself, as its such an obvious thing when you think about it, particuarly if you have had a bit of time on a dyno.

[husaberg]

Frits has given a good explanation of the reasons for fuel stand off in a rotary valver. Its also a clue to more power too, because if the stand off is at max power rpm, then it points to the possibility of closing the inlet a little later.



I too was surprised Neil wasn’t onto this himself, as its such an obvious thing when you think about it, particuarly if you have had a bit of time on a dyno.

Possibly just possibly. Frits is a teeny tiny bit more clever than Neil. It could be errr...........possible

He does (SS unspoken) have the fall back position available in NZ for the Race Relations Conciliator if the Scooter thing doesn't pan out with the Vespa's

But on to more productive things.

Remarks in the Disk valve Merlin single suggest it was suffering from stagnation in its original test and the the jetting was only put right on the modern version after a session with the Late Leon Moss on the Dyno. It is said in both accounts that no reliance could be placed on the plug for correct jetting. mmmm.....


I will add an article that most Kiwi's will be familiar with and no doubt Mr Wayne Wright (sounds like a character from are you being served.
"Are you free Mr Waynewright")will be able to shed some light on a few bits like the 36HP more highly effective power valve.

[wobbly]

Aww shit, come on you guys.
Its bloody obvious - Frits is a dead set Industry Man,working as a senior employee of the biggest bastion of 2T insanity on the planet.
Can you imagine what it must have been like to have to work full time, trying to find something useful for 100 people to do in the race dept at Aprilia.
Must have been a bitch, at the least a worry.
What I dont understand is why Niel ( who the hell is he by the way) wasnt working as Jans right hand man, so much to contribute, no one to listen.

[husaberg]

Can you add any info to the BSL story above Wob. Or highlight any errors.
I always thought for some reason there was a twin that they started with first. Many years before the Triple.

Ps does anyone know why. No mater how careful you are loading the attachments. They end up in random orders sometimes?

[Strokerhaus]

As an addition to what Wobbly said about the exhaust duct-flange diameter, there is this quote from pitlane.biz:



and the photos of RSA's duct/flange

Attachment 251236
Attachment 251237

These changes in section at the exhaust, I have been trying to understand why they work. I lost 1 bhp on one of my old engines, after I had modified a port and a step in the exhaust, yes typical idiot, but no time no money so go for it! Unfortunately the engine granaded itself in the next meeting so could not go back to check out the changes. The port mod I have since repeated on another engine, and I'm reasoably certain it was not that. The exhaust port was round with just a step at the manifold. In checking out potential reasons I have noticed in a HRC tuning manual for the RS125 that you can remove the top mismatch on the port to manifold joint but not the lower one. So it suggests that oval is not mandatory but a step is.

Not certain if I have been sniffing too much Avgas/Castrol R, but I was wondering if the step sets up a sonic shock wave across the port, so engine side is sub sonic, and waves still go up and down pipe at supersonic speed. Therefore the width of the step and its proximity to the open port is critical, just like a jet engine intake. The advantage being possibly that it stops the shock wave going into the cylinder, from my understanding if a shock wave goes into a cavity it cause chaos to any flows (jan's comment keeping exhaust and inlet seperate). Has anyone any thoughts about this or am I off my head?

[wobbly]

Most of the article is crap,with alot of misguided ego's and selectively faulty memory involved.
For example Harden had nothing to do with the alternator design,he soldered the coils together, collected the magnets from F&P and had them epoxied.
The original CAD files are on a disc in my draw next to me.
I could spend a month dictating the reality of what happened and why at BSL.
First off the tripple was 59.6mm square,not 56, and the cylinder swept volume has absolutely nothing to do with the pistons "falling into" the exhaust ports.
The 120* V layout had a very clever firing order and balance shaft arrangement, the right hand upper, and middle lower cylinder fired together,the LH upper firing 120* later.
This was developed by Simon Longdill with a program he wrote for his BE project.
It worked a treat, being very smooth, but the crank took an age to make reliable due to very strong torsional harmonics.
The carbs were not anything like $10,000, they were SPJs off a Honda RS125 and cost about $800 each.
As they were on the front of the engine,facing back to front, they flooded under hard braking.
The float levers would force the needles off the seats, so I had some new bowls made using the needle and seats out of a Mikuni TMX.
These used a rod to support the floats - worked fine after that.

The extra mid range power was all down to using ATAC chambers on the top two cylinders, as well as the original PV blades.

Piston reliability was finally nailed when Vertex did some pistons with the correct cam shape to suit the bore when it was hot, this took 4 attempts,each attempt taking about 6 months from me sending
the CAD file, to getting the part to test.
All 3 were the same by the way.
Very frustrating, but we had no other way of getting the job done, being very small fish in a very big pond.

The CNC machined frame and swingarm spars were a work of art,we were the first to do this,as were the rapid prototyped cylinders.
These were cast directly off the CAD files by a company called Soligen - their web site still has our cylinder as an example of their CAD casting expertise.

The real shame at the end of the day, was that we finally cracked the reliability problems, running 100s of laps at Sepang with no breakdowns of the two test bikes.
The lap times there put us mid grid of the previous years GP, and this was documented by the Sepang Clerk of the Course.
When we applied to race at Philip Island that year,Dorna realised we had a chance of gaining points, and this would have given us the right to a "franchise" the following year - that could be sold for a fortune.
They took our "development team" status away, gave it to Ducati, who didnt even have a bike on the drawing board at the time, and told us to piss off.

The case CAD pic is the raw file used to craete the tool path.
The finish cuts were with a ball nose - leaving radi in all the corners by default.
Second shot shows the finished engine with carbs - the third a rendering of the tiny alternator, using NdFeB magnet material out of a F&P Smartdrive.

[TZ350]

I always thought for some reason there was a twin that they started with first. Many years before the Triple.

There was an earlier bike, on a visit once, upstairs in a storage area above the old resonator assembly room in the original Bowden rd workshop Bill showed me a dust covered hand made (rolling?) frame and a bunch of new engine parts from 125 YZ MXr's. Bill gave me one of the ignitions off it for something I was running at the time.

I can't remember the intended engine configuration of this earlier hand built Buckly race bike, not sure but I don't think it had actually ever been finished and run. Our real interest in ratting through the loft was to find some of his old Vincent speedway engine parts for a special he was building. A year or so later he started up the BSL project.

There was another hand made special about the place, I have only ever seen pictures of the rolling chassis and engine pinned on the wall at Gigglebuttons workshop but Nigal Duff was building a 500-4 stroker and I think that made it to the track, maybe the frame I saw at Bucklys and the pictures on the smoko wall at Giggles is the same bike.

[husaberg]

There was an earlier bike, on a visit once, upstairs in a storage area above the old resonator assembly room in the original Bowden rd workshop Bill showed me a dust covered hand made (rolling?) frame and a bunch of new engine parts from 125 YZ MXr's. Bill gave me one of the ignitions off it for something I was running at the time. I can't remember the intended engine configuration of this earlier hand built Buckly race bike, not sure but I don't think it had actually ever been finished and run. Our real interest in ratting through the loft was to find some of his old Vincent speedway engine parts for a special he was building. A year or so later he started up the BSL project.

I seem to think a twin with cr250 cylinders or such like it was in Kiwibiker along time ago around 91 I think I could have been someone else but it was a father and son?

Most of the article is crap,with alot of misguided ego's and selectively faulty memory involved.
For example Harden had nothing to do with the alternator design,he soldered the coils together, collected the magnets from F&F and had them epoxied.
The original CAD files are on a disc in my draw next to me.
I could spend a month dictating the reality of what happened and why at BSL.
First off the tripple was 59.6mm square,not 56, and the cylinder swept volume has absolutely nothing to do with the pistons "falling into" the exhaust ports.
The 120* V layout had a very clever firing order and balance shaft arrangement, the right hand upper, and middle lower cylinder fired together,the LH upper firing 120* later.
This was developed by Simon Longdill with a program he wrote for his BE project.
It worked a treat, being very smooth, but the crank took an age to make reliable due to very strong torsional harmonics.
The carbs were not anything like $10,000, they were SPJs off a Honda RS125 and cost about $800 each.
As they were on the front of the engine,facing back to front, they flooded under hard braking.
The float levers would force the needles off the seats, so I had some new bowls made using the needle and seats out of a Mikuni TMX.
These used a rod to support the floats - worked fine after that.

The extra mid range power was all down to using ATAC chambers on the top two cylinders, as well as the original PV blades.

Piston reliability was finally nailed when Vertex did some pistons with the correct cam shape to suit the bore when it was hot, this took 4 attempts,each attempt taking about 6 months from me sending
the CAD file, to getting the part to test.
All 3 were the same by the way.
Very frustrating, but we had no other way of getting the job done, being very small fish in a very big pond.

The CNC machined frame and swingarm spars were a work of art,we were the first to do this,as were the rapid prototyped cylinders.
These were cast directly off the CAD files by a company called Soligen - their web site still has our cylinder as an example of their CAD casting expertise.

The real shame at the end of the day, was that we finally cracked the reliability problems, running 100s of laps at Sepang with no breakdowns of the two test bikes.
The lap times there put us mid grid of the previous years GP, and this was documented by the Sepang Clerk of the Course.
When we applied to race at Philip Island that year,Dorna realised we had a chance of gaining points, and this would have given us the right to a "franchise" the following year - that could be sold for a fortune.
They took our "development team" status away, gave it to Ducati, who didnt even have a bike on the drawing board at the time, and told us to piss off.

The case CAD pic is the raw file used to craete the tool path.
The finish cuts were with a ball nose - leaving radi in all the corners by default.
Second shot shows the finished engine with carbs - the third a rendering of the tiny alternator, using NdFeB magnet material out of a F&F Smartdrive.

LInk to Soligen with cylinders http://www.soligen.com/parts/motorcycle-eng.shtml

I have done a couple of interviews with the media and had a little to do with press realeses and such like. One interview I did I found out all sort of interesting information about myself that I never knew before after reading the article. It is very interesting how different a story becomes by the change of a few words or a coma or full stop here or there.

The bore and stroke threw me a bit when i read it as it wouldn't have been 500 and 56mm pistons would have been common although maybe a little short.that and all the stuff i tried to highlight as well thanks Wob. Was the designer of the styling right? I always though John did his own styling.Although the name is sure familiar.

The MNZ was clearly not as friendly to BSL as it was to the Britten either. B.stards. At least they are consistent with there inconsistency's anyway.

[wobbly]

Bill built a V4 - 500 that used YZ125 parts, with a pressed and welded frame.
It wasnt very clever, and he didnt like it when I said to him in the tent at Manfield that the guy who made the pipes should be shot.
I was with Mike Sinclair, Mike Webb and the other Mike the suspension guy from here in Tauranga.
They all told Bill to start again, and eventually he did.
When Loren and I turned up to start the project, he wanted us to finish the prototype, but as I pointed out there was no place to put the water pump,so that sealed its fate - bin it.

Another laugh I had was over Briggsy designing and building all the pipes, more rubbish.
I was so busy trying to get the engine rework done - I taught him what to do, and gave him the laser'd pattern designs and he welded and hammered some of the final few sets up, including some Ti ones.
Made some real nice ones too.
Jason Monopoly worked for John B, then came to us at BSL for 6 months.
He did all the glass styling/design work, and off that Roly made some stunning bodywork that worked well in the wind tunnel testing we did at AK Uni.
But alot was changed when Mike Sinclair mused about sidewind effects at 300Km/H

Nigels bike we worked on and off for about 10 years,going in fits when he had some money.
It was a pretty thing, as you can see from the pipes,but Nige finally gave up on trying to finish it - its gone to Rodent in Queenstown

[F5 Dave]

Yeah it was. Frame supposedly an RGV500 copy, I was very impressed at its handmade appearance. RG500 converted to V configuration, RGB dry clutch, wanky gearbox, reputably ex works bit suspension etc etc. He offered it to me about 3-4 years back when he realised he would never have time to finish it, & I was tempted. But had to be realistic, it needed some serious skills to finish things like inlet manifolds machined for V config, there was just too much to do custom made. So instead I opted for something simple like a CPI barreled RZ in a hybrid frame. Hey I rode it today.

[speedpro]

I worked for Nige a few years back. The bike was on a stand in his workshop/lounge. You had to appreciate the work that had gone into it. Nigel did say something about heat treating the frame before riding it and there was a mountain of other stuff to do. Niggly stuff like float bowls for the carbs. Nige had the skills and contacts to finish it but time was another matter. You only have to check out his bucket to know what he's capable of.

[TZ350]

The handmade V4 of Nigals, now that’s a very impressive effort, and truly a work of art …….

I feel I am starting to get my head around this software and developed the model as best I can then optimised it. It takes 1 hour and forty minuets to run a simulation in turbulent mode on my old computer. Once I had the combustion data it was much quicker in prescribed mode and I spent some serious time looking for ways of improving things.

the best I can do with a 24mm carb and my old RS pipe.

The best arrangement with the 24mm carb and old RS125 pipe I have been able to come up with is.
For the Single exhaust port, Ex opening 79 ATDC, Trans 117 ATDC and inlet 145 BTDC / 85 ATDC.
For the Triple exhaust port, Ex opening 85 ATDC, Trans 116 ATDC and inlet 145 BTDC / 85 ATDC.

The triple even though it has STA’s good for 40+ hp its simulated curve is much the same as the single exhaust port with STA’s at 35ish confirming my thoughts that the 24mm carb has become the limiting factor.

As power is torque by rpm I could get more power by spinning increasingly less torque faster but I rather like my fatter torque curve, I think it has benefits that shear hp lacks.

So I have become convinced that there is not much future in making special triple ex port ally liners in the quest for more power although they could help with ring life.

My 28.9hp bike compaired to Speedpros 30hp open carb 100.

With carfull work I might get another hp or two but It seems clear the future lies in developing a new pipe and extending the lower end of the torque curve.

From a comment by Wobbly earlier, I think the triple port might have its uses here as the lower Ex duration allows the pipe to stay in sink over a wider rpm range than it would with the single ports higher duration (peaker) timing.

Now I just have to figure out, how to use the pipe to spread the lower part of the torque curve out a bit, just like Wobbly has for Speedpro.

[koba]

As power is torque by rpm I could get more power by spinning increasingly less torque faster but I rather like my fatter torque curve, I think it has benefits.

Not to mention the reliability benefits of not spinning an old commuter bike crank so hard!

It will be interesting to see how further work on the pipe influences things.

[TZ350]

It will be interesting to see how further work on the pipe influences things.

EngMod2T, I think this is the software Wobbly used to develop Speedpros engine and pipe and that works pretty well.