Welfare support and drug testing

[Edbear]

Reading through this thread it is surprising the number of people who can't seem to grasp the concept of personal responsibility. If you are on the unemployment benefit you have a responsibility to get off it as soon as you can. Your "job" is to look for a job. The old adage, "beggars can't be choosers" is true, you get whatever job you can to support yourself, not wait until the "perfect" job comes along and drops conveniently into your lap.

It is obviously true that many simply do not want to work, and those that do, want to get their ideal job, not just whatever job is available to them. Anyone actively seeking work adn who is prepared to do most anything they can get, should be encouraged and supported. They deserve the dole while they look. Those who are picky and choosey and pass on jobs they thoink are beneath them or they don't like, should be given a kick where it will do the most good.

John Key was talking about those who deliberately avoid getting a job, not those who are trying to get a job. Some here don't seem to get that. If someone is genuinely seeking employment they will present themselves in a manner that gives them the best chance of getting the job, not in a manner that is going to ensure they don't get an interview.

I have sympathy for those who want to work and do their best to find "A" job, and support them, but have no sympathy whatsoever for those who can't be bothered. We have lived in a fool's paradise for so long that people now think it is their right to have everything given to them and if something requires effort, it is not worth pursuing.

[Maki]

There was a time when the state did not take care of people the way it does now. People would help family members or neighbors who were going through a rough patch. The condition for such help would usually be that the person who was being helped was also making a sincere effort to stand on his or her own two feet again. This condition would be imposed, both for the benefit of the person receiving help (to avoid dependency) and for the person providing the help (to avoid an indefinite financial drain). The logic of this is quite clear and it transfers well to the current situation.

If you provide a benefit for people and expect nothing whatsoever in return, not even a level of sober living that would make them fit to take on employment if it did become available, then you are doing them NO FAVORS whatsoever. You are doing them a disservice and you are doing a disservice to their families and to society in general. There IS no such thing as free money. Everything you or I consume has to be produced on the back of somebody's work. That work has to be respected and rewarded and people who abuse the system by hanging around all day stoned and not being in a state to contribute to society should starve until they get sober and or get a job, whichever comes first.

If they get a job where their employer allows them to be stoned, fine, it is none of my business. If they however sit around high on drugs and use the money I work for and pay through my taxes to support them it IS my business and I want it to stop.

[Brian d marge]

Reading through this thread it is surprising the number of people who can't seem to grasp the concept of personal responsibility. If you are on the unemployment benefit you have a responsibility to get off it as soon as you can. Your "job" is to look for a job. The old adage, "beggars can't be choosers" is true, you get whatever job you can to support yourself, not wait until the "perfect" job comes along and drops conveniently into your lap.

It is obviously true that many simply do not want to work, and those that do, want to get their ideal job, not just whatever job is available to them. Anyone actively seeking work adn who is prepared to do most anything they can get, should be encouraged and supported. They deserve the dole while they look. Those who are picky and choosey and pass on jobs they thoink are beneath them or they don't like, should be given a kick where it will do the most good.

John Key was talking about those who deliberately avoid getting a job, not those who are trying to get a job. Some here don't seem to get that. If someone is genuinely seeking employment they will present themselves in a manner that gives them the best chance of getting the job, not in a manner that is going to ensure they don't get an interview.

I have sympathy for those who want to work and do their best to find "A" job, and support them, but have no sympathy whatsoever for those who can't be bothered. We have lived in a fool's paradise for so long that people now think it is their right to have everything given to them and if something requires effort, it is not worth pursuing.

true but , some are truely unemployable , some do NOT want a Job because they are making money elsewhere , some are genuinley trying ... but it does come back to what does one call a "job" , and being abused at a dead end job for not much more than the dole ....
Im looking at the dole ( or education )

Also, it takes about a couple of months on the dole , before you can sink into " who cares" attitude especially if you apply for work and keep getting rejected.

Now , what would the state say IF YOU refused the dole... were completly self sufficient ??? they would need to get their pound of tax some how , I wonder HOW they would do it

Stephen

[nodrog:Me]

[Edbear]

true but , some are truely unemployable , some do NOT want a Job because they are making money elsewhere , some are genuinley trying ... but it does come back to what does one call a "job" , and being abused at a dead end job for not much more than the dole ....
Im looking at the dole ( or education )

Also, it takes about a couple of months on the dole , before you can sink into " who cares" attitude especially if you apply for work and keep getting rejected.

Now , what would the state say IF YOU refused the dole... were completly self sufficient ??? they would need to get their pound of tax some how , I wonder HOW they would do it Stephen

Please explain..?

I am virtually unemployable as I am 54, no formal qualifications, live on drugs including painkillers for a broken back, (twice). I can't lift, stand or walk much and suffer fatigue and pain every day. I tried for months to get a job once I was cleared for work by ACC, but I was only cleared for 20hrs per week sedentary work.

I have a lot of experience in jobs such as when I was in Small-Medium business management at TelstraClear. So I could do several types of office work, but no-one wants a 54 year old who can only work 20hrs a week. The want young, fresh, energetic go-getters with tertiary qualifications. Of course they can pay them less as well.

If I was physically capable I would have got a job pumping gas or spraying weeds on the Council, I'm not too proud, but certainly would not want to wind up on the dole. People need to realise it is far easier to change your job, whatever it is, than get one from the dole queue.

[Brian d marge]

Please explain..?

.

Was just wonder out loud ..IF we have a social " agreement " and one feels that the social agreement has been broken, so one withdraws from not society but from the structure of society , yes that includes medical at what point would the state come knocking, and if it could be proved you werent reliant on the structures proved by the state ( roads etc) what would the state do ?

user pays!

Stephen

[Maki]

Was just wonder out loud ..IF we have a social " agreement " and one feels that the social agreement has been broken, so one withdraws from not society but from the structure of society , yes that includes medical at what point would the state come knocking, and if it could be proved you werent reliant on the structures proved by the state ( roads etc) what would the state do ?

user pays!

Stephen

The state would come knocking the second they found out your are not paying your taxes. They do not give a rats ass whether or not "one feels" an agreement has been broken.

[skippa1]

I thought you didn't expect them to do anything. You offered, they declined, don't get yer knickers in a twist coz they didn't give you the joy joy feeling of having your offer accepted.



as I alluded to, I guess non too obviously, you're as bad as each other... displaying exactly the same character traits and denying it in the same breath. You can't make this shit up ... however one is not putting demands on you, merely accepting a handout that should be without strings, where the other is making demands using their ass as a replacement for their brain.

you keep toking bro.....your world is a happy, somewhat confused, but happy place.

[Brian d marge]

The state would come knocking the second they found out your are not paying your taxes. They do not give a rats ass whether or not "one feels" an agreement has been broken.

thats what I reckon to , but just thinking out loud, could it be possible to remove oneself from the "taxable" state

stephen

[jasonu]

if they are contributing(working and paying tax) and not posing a risk to others, I dont care, Im not paying for their habit.

That is the point of this discussion isn't it?

[Bikemad]

Nonsense on extended stilts. If I have to submit to and pass a drug test to remain employed and collect my pay, why is it that people who collect unemployment don't have to do the same?

best question so far............how come none of the layabout sympathisers haven't answered it yet me wonders...........doh!

[Ocean1]

actually, some government types got together a while ago and decided...

I think I see where some ramdom fuckwit might come unstuck, there.

See, the UN isn't the font of all wisdom, In fact they're more yer rabid, foam-at-the-mouth socialist misfits. And yet even THEY see the folly of a free-for-all for any lazy prick that feels he has rights someone else needs to realise for him.

article 25: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control"

Turns out the actual suppliers of such extraordinary largess as our social welfare system don't really consider "would rather veg out with some weed, dude" as "beyond his control".

[jasonu]

And something to consider, if they clean up for the test, start using again, and do some damage on the job, or on the way to work, is they a net gain, or loss to society?

Random drug testing for ALL employees takes care of that.

[mashman]

Reading through this thread it is surprising the number of people who can't seem to grasp the concept of personal responsibility. If you are on the unemployment benefit you have a responsibility to get off it as soon as you can. Your "job" is to look for a job. The old adage, "beggars can't be choosers" is true, you get whatever job you can to support yourself, not wait until the "perfect" job comes along and drops conveniently into your lap.

It is obviously true that many simply do not want to work, and those that do, want to get their ideal job, not just whatever job is available to them. Anyone actively seeking work adn who is prepared to do most anything they can get, should be encouraged and supported. They deserve the dole while they look. Those who are picky and choosey and pass on jobs they thoink are beneath them or they don't like, should be given a kick where it will do the most good.

John Key was talking about those who deliberately avoid getting a job, not those who are trying to get a job. Some here don't seem to get that. If someone is genuinely seeking employment they will present themselves in a manner that gives them the best chance of getting the job, not in a manner that is going to ensure they don't get an interview.

I have sympathy for those who want to work and do their best to find "A" job, and support them, but have no sympathy whatsoever for those who can't be bothered. We have lived in a fool's paradise for so long that people now think it is their right to have everything given to them and if something requires effort, it is not worth pursuing.

There was a time when the state did not take care of people the way it does now. People would help family members or neighbors who were going through a rough patch. The condition for such help would usually be that the person who was being helped was also making a sincere effort to stand on his or her own two feet again. This condition would be imposed, both for the benefit of the person receiving help (to avoid dependency) and for the person providing the help (to avoid an indefinite financial drain). The logic of this is quite clear and it transfers well to the current situation.

If you provide a benefit for people and expect nothing whatsoever in return, not even a level of sober living that would make them fit to take on employment if it did become available, then you are doing them NO FAVORS whatsoever. You are doing them a disservice and you are doing a disservice to their families and to society in general. There IS no such thing as free money. Everything you or I consume has to be produced on the back of somebody's work. That work has to be respected and rewarded and people who abuse the system by hanging around all day stoned and not being in a state to contribute to society should starve until they get sober and or get a job, whichever comes first.

If they get a job where their employer allows them to be stoned, fine, it is none of my business. If they however sit around high on drugs and use the money I work for and pay through my taxes to support them it IS my business and I want it to stop.

If someone loses their job with 50k in the "bank", they are expected to use those saving to support their costs of living. Why would they not hold out for a job that pays the standard of living they require to keep their home etc...? Also just taking a job until something better comes along takes a job away from someone that might actually need it for a longer period of time. One thing you guys seem to forget, or ignore, is that there aren't enough jobs to go around.

As for doing them no favours... WTF!!! they have made their choice, let them get on with it. at any given point in time there are X number of jobs available and Y number of people to fill them. Why not have professionally unemployed people. It'd certainly stop the bene bashing and is a perfect opportunity to accept the inevitable. IF everyone went to a new job within a year, we would have a revolving door of workers and we would be paying out exactly the same amount of $ s we do now. Forcing those with a different set of values into work ain't gonna do anyone any favours. But I have no doubt that you guys can't grasp that fact, because you use your personal circumstances and hardships as a measure of what others should aspire to, irrespective of whether they are capable of it or just plain don't want to. The dole ain't a picnic, get over yourselves and see it from their perspective for a change... I care not that there are some that don't want to work, it ain't like it makes a blind bit of economic difference, as mentioned before, revolving X Jobs Y people revolving door same payout, yet you'd rather lay down the law instead of using some common sense and allowing what happens to run its natural course.

@people starving. It happens elsewhere in the world, millions and millions and millions of them, and all because there aren't any jobs . This is why I wanna see this policy implemented with extreme prejudice... I can't wait til thieving, muggings and killings kick in because people are starving in a place where food, money and stuff is just a street or two away. Think it through, where does that lead? Yes they may get caught and end up in jail, costing us an extra 80k a pop, but you'll have people who will have suffered because of a policy you howled for... and I will blame you for that damage! Fuckin pathetic!

[mashman]

you keep toking bro.....your world is a happy, somewhat confused, but happy place.

An average of 1 a month this year and then I'm even happier... go figure .