Are the boys at BSB with their "stock" superbikes onto something?

[The Chow]

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision to at least investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

The lightly modded stock proposition is a good one, but has a couple of fishooks in there that have been discussed over the last couple of years ( yes, we've been talking about this for at least that long - this is NOT a new overnight brainwave )

Billy is doing a great job of taking the idea further down the track, just dont take any perceived lack of progress as inactivity on his part

Oh I miss those days Oh Great One , NOT! -LOL

[Shaun]

Not so good if you are standing on the bridge though.

what goes up must come down

[slowpoke]

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Well summarised Ian. Its always a challenge to keep everything as affordable as possible but the ''line in the sand'' mustnt be moved so far that it creates real issues ( such as more crashing )............ because of the simple expedient of satisfying those that have unrealistic expectations of just how affordable it should be. If youve got a beer income but a champagne taste then really you should just be drinking beer. Or in other terms if you cannot truly afford to go 600 or 1000cc racing at a realistic and safe level, then you should choose a lesser formula.
Thats in no way intended to be callous in outlook, its simple economics. But anyway, as Ian said there wasnt much wrong with the old 600 sports production rules.

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision to at least investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

The lightly modded stock proposition is a good one, but has a couple of fishooks in there that have been discussed over the last couple of years ( yes, we've been talking about this for at least that long - this is NOT a new overnight brainwave )

Billy is doing a great job of taking the idea further down the track, just dont take any perceived lack of progress as inactivity on his part

Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.

Riders are always going to strive for the 'premier class' espesially if it is just the premier class that gets the TV coverage

If the 'premier class' becomes what is discussed here then that is where the manufacurers will put their product and best riders. Whilst the is a percieved better choice then that is where they will go.

[codgyoleracer]

Well summarised Ian. Its always a challenge to keep everything as affordable as possible but the ''line in the sand'' mustnt be moved so far that it creates real issues ( such as more crashing )............ because of the simple expedient of satisfying those that have unrealistic expectations of just how affordable it should be. If youve got a beer income but a champagne taste then really you should just be drinking beer. Or in other terms if you cannot truly afford to go 600 or 1000cc racing at a realistic and safe level, then you should choose a lesser formula.
Thats in no way intended to be callous in outlook, its simple economics. But anyway, as Ian said there wasnt much wrong with the old 600 sports production rules.

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

[codgyoleracer]

Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.

Agreed: The above is trying to explain the difference between providing clear direction with an overall clear long-term plan, as oposed to reacting to a current position and creating a short term solution.
This sorta stuff is probably a bit too deep to explain in this type of forum, (no offence to anyone) but some on here will know what i am reffering too.

[Robert Taylor]

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

Absolutely not and I stand resolutely by what I said. Safety should always be of paramount importance in any consideration of playing with motorsport rules, but that wasnt my main point by any means. The reality is there are those who continually want to make classes cheaper to ''self consider'' /suit what are often unrealistically low budgets. Therefore the rulemakers need to carefully consider that rule changes that bear in mind cost cutting dont unduly bastardise the class. Balance....

[Crasherfromwayback]

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

Yeah I don't recall too many people getting badly hurt on senior proddy bikes because they didn't have $3000.00 shocks. You put better shocks on 'em...they go round corners faster. You then crash harder when it goes bad. Think the 800cc moto gp bikes have had far worse biffs than the thous they replaced with the xtra corner speed.

[codgyoleracer]

Absolutely not and I stand resolutely by what I said. Safety should always be of paramount importance in any consideration of playing with motorsport rules, but that wasnt my main point by any means. The reality is there are those who continually want to make classes cheaper to ''self consider'' /suit what are often unrealistically low budgets. Therefore the rulemakers need to carefully consider that rule changes that bear in mind cost cutting dont unduly bastardise the class. Balance....

All good Rob, I am typing my report on safety concerns to the organisers of BSB as we speak. The spec bikes that they are now using which now must be well below the apparently "safer" level of the WSBK machines is clearly a risk to the riders of that series. I may have trouble sleeping tonight over the matter.............

[codgyoleracer]

RE TYRE USAGE

Check out www.formula-xtreme.com.au/ and look at rules for the 600 class

I think they are great rules helping keep costs down and as the race/practice/qualify milage is very simmilar, it may be a good thing for back home in SBK and 600z

The brand quality we have to use is SHIT though USA Ntec SUCK and the sizing is ridiculous, 125 front and 200 rear on 600z

Yeah, its another whole subjective subject on its own that one aye Shaun.
Personally i agree with the concept overall.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah I don't recall too many people getting badly hurt on senior proddy bikes because they didn't have $3000.00 shocks. You put better shocks on 'em...they go round corners faster. You then crash harder when it goes bad. Think the 800cc moto gp bikes have had far worse biffs than the thous they replaced with the xtra corner speed.

Come on Pete, thats a bit mischievous. I wasnt referring to shocks per-se. It was a generalised comment and we have all seen plenty of people crash because ( for example ) the tyres were well past their use by date. But yes good suspension does give you the ability to crash at higher speed, and I tell a lot of my customers that!

[Robert Taylor]

All good Rob, I am typing my report on safety concerns to the organisers of BSB as we speak. The spec bikes that they are now using which now must be well below the apparently "safer" level of the WSBK machines is clearly a risk to the riders of that series. I may have trouble sleeping tonight over the matter.............

Refer my reply to Pete ( Crasher.... ) But also read my earlier post which cites an example of a fork related issue compared to ''beefy'' racing intended forks. Also note my clarification that I wasnt advocating using more expensive components. Its TOTALLY relevant to state that there are always ( often nasty ) technical issues to consider / overcome when you take stuff to the race track that was never intended for racing.
The commuter bikes that we turn into racebikes ( SV650 ) are as you are abundantly aware a prime example . I think the crankcases count is increasing for one.
Personally I would like to see something along the lines of how Superstock 1000 is currently drawn up and apply that also to 600 class. And if we must talk about suspension for these bikes it is clear that most racers have an appetite moreso for aftermarket shocks and cartridges, they are more forgiving, are a LOT easier to work with ( some anyway! ) and have ongoing resale value.

[The Chow]

Riders are always going to strive for the 'premier class' espesially if it is just the premier class that gets the TV coverage

If the 'premier class' becomes what is discussed here then that is where the manufacurers will put their product and best riders. Whilst the is a percieved better choice then that is where they will go.

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period , but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

[Billy]

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period , but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Hahahaha! I wouldnt go taking it to heart Ian,Really when you think about it,What goes on,On this site is no different to what we used to do back in the 70s,Only difference was we went to the old Taita hotel 6 nights a week to do it,As your well aware everybodys an expert and MNZ will only ever be a bunch of wankers trying to make it as difficult for the competitors as we can to some folks,Its hardly a new thing and something I was well aware before taking the position,I'm quite prepared to listen to anybodys ideas,But that doesn't mean they'll be set in stone and I'm sure it would be a shock too most if they realised a majority vote in this sport is around 25%,You only have to look at the voting figures to realise that.

My plans for this class are as follows,

One class called Supersport,Stock engines,Full exhaust,Powercommander/kit ECU,Aftermarket suspenders.

Its hardly new,I'm led to believe its as it used too be,After many hours discussing this with a widerange of people from within the industry/competitors previous and present and anybody else thats actually bothered to contact me on the matter,This is what appears to be on the face of it the best scenario,Yip theres gonna be some makes that are not competitve with stock engines some years,But it will no doubt be swings and round abouts when it comes too this,Yes theres gonna be some folks that spend the extra money getting their engines blueprinted and MAY have an advantage,But thats motorsport,If you made it all stock,Those same folks will just spend the money at the track getting faster anyways,All the same as I see it,It Allows joe average to enter the class and not HAVE to be down a huge amount on horsepower or spend a bunch of money.

Of course these are only my thoughts and I know there are others on the commission and beyond who think differently and I'm sure there'll be some healthy debate on the subject,When its discussed in full.

[codgyoleracer]

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period , but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Yip, Rock and Hard place for the guys stuck with the job.
But never-the-less unless the subject is discussed warts n all, it can be difficult to have all the information at hand so as to provide the best forecast / plan possible for those that make the calls.

This particular subject - whilst topical, is just one of many many "other matters" that these guys have to deal with (all for love) on a day-to-day basis. To most of us many of these "other matters" often appear trivial but to those involved with them they are a priority.

What i am trying to say, is that whilst this might be a "big picture issue" that has a greater impact on the sport as a whole, - we cannot ignore the efforts made in so many areas by these volunteers that try there damdest to keep everyone happy on all matters.