If that was the system I imagine teachers would become somewhat preoccupied with pleasing the parent,in order to get re-elected, at the cost of a sound education for the child. A bit like the govt...................
Forum whore
If that was the system I imagine teachers would become somewhat preoccupied with pleasing the parent,in order to get re-elected, at the cost of a sound education for the child. A bit like the govt...................
Just faidin away!
Sure!Originally Posted by SVboy
One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)
Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair?
Just faidin away!
Well, at the end of the day the parent "is" the customer, it is "their" child that is recieving the education and why shouldn't they get what they pay for?
I bet you are selective as to what mechanic you take your bike to and I bet you demand value for money when ever you buy something!
Why shouldn't you expect value for money in such an important factor as your child's education?
As a tax payer, you are every bit as much a customer as you would be at a private school but like with the government, we get what we deserve if we accept less than what we need!
Anarchic Wild Child
THis is true ... but why does that justify high pay? The only qualification for being an MP is electability - nothing to do with the actual job - a teacher in primary or secondary school needs a minimum of three years training ... what do the politicians need? A smile and the ability to lie convincingly ...
And you'd get crap teachers ... three years and you get a new lot? What happens to all that axperience? ... and as one who does work in the teaching profession - we are not here to be liked or popular - we are here to help people LEARN ... if parents have to approve teachers' employment every three years you'll create a popularity contest - with little or nothing to do with good teaching ..I wonder how some teachers would fare if they had to get 50% of the the parents to approve their continuing employment every three years.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Anarchic Wild Child
Sure!
One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)
Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair?
Half an answer - how do you measure the "tangible quality of teaching" ...???? Give us some specifics.
I do agree that there are some piss poor teachers in secondary - I experienced them .. and now students turn up in my classes who carry with them the results of piss poor secondary teachers ... but defining good teaching is much harder than those outside the profession imagine ..
But as has been pointed out earlier - different students have different needs and excellent teachers get different results - a teacher in a Decile 10 school (top economic area) might experience a pack of very intelligent rebels who do not want to be there - the teacher has major problems with this group, and the class barely passes anything at all ... another teacher in a decile 1 school (bottom of the economic heap) may be achieving fantastic results simply by still having ALL the pupils in class at the end of the year ... which one is the better teacher?
I have seen, at tertiary level, a pass rate of 40% which was regarded as very good ... this was in a class of return to education students who had a 100% fail rate anywhere else ... a 40% pass rate was better than any other group of teachers had ever done with this group ... but some would say that a 40% pass rate indicates something is wrong ..
So - performance pay ? - a very difficult subject ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Curmudgeon
It probably goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway – a cursory glance at the spelling, punctuation, grammar and argument used by posters in this thread does not reflect well on the Teaching Profession.
Anarchic Wild Child
You are reducing human beings to Economic Functionaries ... human beings are much more than that ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Just faidin away!
Absolutely but isn't this a discussion?
I have seen many things where 80% of a discussion is about why something can't be done, rather than why it "can be done"!
The current situation regards teachers work conditions and pay is obviously not a satisfactory one .... the teachers, pupils and parents all say so continuously!
I was very much in the same frame of mind when my own work situation was taken into performance remuneration ... wouldn't have it any other way now!
Protections put in place by unions, politicians etc are more about the benefit of the unions and the politicians and inevitably result in mediocrety!
They protect the lowest common denominator at the expence of higher achievers ... no wonder high achievers get pissed off and eventually piss off altogether!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! .... sure but if it is broke fix it fucking fast before it fails completely!
The only thing to be afraid of is if everything stays the way it is now ... unless of course you are one of those that is happy the way it is!
Mad nagging bitch!
A top rate mechanic can choose not to work on an old shitter that has been abused or neglected...
Why should teachers not expect that kids start school ready for school, disciplined, fed, cared for, nurtured and supported? The kids that come from those homes are (usually) easy to teach..its the others who take up the time, energy and resources.
Diarrhoea is hereditary - it runs in your jeans
If my nose was running money, I'd blow it all on you...
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes - your argument is valid I asked for some performance measures ..Absolutely but isn't this a discussion?
I have seen many things where 80% of a discussion is about why something can't be done, rather than why it "can be done"!
The current situation regards teachers work conditions and pay is obviously not a satisfactory one .... the teachers, pupils and parents all say so continuously!
I was very much in the same frame of mind when my own work situation was taken into performance remuneration ... wouldn't have it any other way now!
Protections put in place by unions, politicians etc are more about the benefit of the unions and the politicians and inevitably result in mediocrety!
They protect the lowest common denominator at the expence of higher achievers ... no wonder high achievers get pissed off and eventually piss off altogether!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it! .... sure but if it is broke fix it fucking fast before it fails completely!
The only thing to be afraid of is if everything stays the way it is now ... unless of course you are one of those that is happy the way it is!
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Just faidin away!
With respect I am not avoiding your question but the performance indicators and agreements have to be decided and agreed upon by those directly involved!
It requires a complete new paradigm shift in thinking about how things would be if they were good when compared to the current model "by those directly involved".
Easy Biker
Just over 30 years ago a back bench MP was paid about the same as a teacher. As noted above the MP is now paid double what the teacher is.
Similar things occur wherever a large group of people is concerned, they get screwed because attempts are made to make savings from the total amount while the individuals get dumped on.
Cheers
Merv
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes ... all of that ...
But see, the issue is, from inside the profession, it's not that easy ... it's anything but easy - and in fact may be too difficult to actually do ...
I've been involved in discussions at tertiary level, were we did set parameters for performance-based pay, based on teaching performance (and a couple of other Key performance Indicators expected a tertiary level) ... but we have the advantage of having stduents, most of the time, who want to be in our classes ... at primary and secondary school it is compulsory for students tro be in class .. and that changes the whole dynamic ...
Way back in the late 1960s I was put in a French class - I did not want to be there, I hated being there, but I had not choice ... I chose not to learn - and my mark for School Certificate French was in single figures ... should the French teachers have had their pay docked for not teaching me French? (I did pass enough subjects to gain School Certificate and move to the next year). Just one personal example ...
As has been said before - school cghldren come from many and varied backgrounds .. should a teacher working in Otara with underfeed children from families who do not value education and have not a single book in the house be judged ont her same outputs as a teacher from a private school where families value education, help them with their homework and feed the kids before they go to school?
Yes - I agree with the ideas and the sentiment .. but the reality is that the practical application may just be too fucking difficult ... (tho' as a tertiary teacher who sees , in most of my classes, the poor results of secondary education, I would like to b able to do it ...)
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Forum whore
What on earth does that mean? Every secondary teacher has to yearly meet MOE set professional standards and have to meet the criteria of their own professional body in order to remain registered. Appearance money! That is bullshit from someone unaware of the stresses involved in being in front of a class today. Anybody not performing is quickly found out from above and below and the job is too stressful to just turn up and not perform. Anyway back to your vague "criteria" for performance pay-what were they again? Go on, try and spell out some specifics!Sure!
One who is paid for the "tangible" quality of their teaching, rather than for how long they have been doing it! (Just like high performance professional athletes etc.)
Teachers are paid appearance money, their value in the job is secondary and piss poor teachers get the same as high achievers, do you think that's fair?
Forum whore
Your not wrong their.
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