ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

......the next best thing to sliced bread on track. Mixed wotnots and sarcasm fully intended.

Glad to see you strike back, Wob .

[wobbly]

Yea maybe a bit like Beck poking his tongue out at Clapton, a respectfully intellectual exercise .

But in a dissimilar vein here is some pervage for the boys,this isnt on track, its on the rubbish tin - and yes I know the floor needs sweeping.
Pre 82 Classic Frepin copy frame I have FEA corrected with TZ400 and S model fairing Billy is hoovering up now.
Coming together for Philip Island next January.
Late model Yamaha blue - tank/fairing will be a bit like Roberts colours.

[Wolfie's Girl]

Hi all...
I have been reading this thread from the beginning. I haven't posted anything as yet due to the fact that I have not really had anything constructive to add. I have however been busy in the garage... To wit I have a couple of pictures to share with you. TeeZee asked if he might post the pictures that I sent him, but I said that I would rather post them myself so that I can give insight in to the build.

Here we have the first mock up...



From this it was clear that I was going to need to pick some brains before I went any further as I have never attempted anything like this before. A virgin to re-powering a bike. So as I just live across the valley from F5Dave it was to him and another wonderful friend Mike Chandler I turned for advice.

The build progressed at what seemed like a pretty slow pace, but I have been told it was actually pretty quick. First the rear engine mounts....

[Wolfie's Girl]

Then I started to tackle the Front mounts, F5Dave gave me the idea to use the triangles to create the front mount, and it was then that I realised I could use the original front isolating bushes of the donor chassis to mimic the original mounting scenario...


I made up the angle brackets and the bushes that were going to form the top of the front mount and then handed the frame over to Mr Chandler who got an unnamed gentleman to tig the brackets on. I think you will all agree he made an amazing job of it!!


The bike was finished in time for the May club round here at Kaitoki, which was wet, and as I had only ridden it for the first time the day before in the wet all seemed well.... Still I was a little worried about the pipe, as it looked like it would get close to the ground, but as I say, it was wet for the first two races....
When it dried I put the slicks on just in time for the third race. This was to be my undoing... I went out on the warmup lap and started to feel like I was getting some heat in to the tyres, so I could attack the corners with a bit more vigour and as I came up the straight for the first time with a bit of pace in I tipped in to turn 1 and the pipe ecked out and it was time for me to exit stage left at the fastest part of the track... I think that I now only have one corner left at Kaitoke that I haven't crashed on.... Still it was a very positive outting realistically!! The bike performed amazingly well straight out of the box and I am really looking forward to the next round!!

[chrisc]

Nice! Great pictures of the mounts.
Does it vibrate a lot? Anything done to the engine besides the pipe?

[husaberg]

Yea maybe a bit like Beck poking his tongue out at Clapton, a respectfully intellectual exercise .

But in a dissimilar vein here is some pervage for the boys,this isnt on track, its on the rubbish tin - and yes I know the floor needs sweeping.
Pre 82 Classic Frepin copy frame I have FEA corrected with TZ400 and S model fairing Billy is hoovering up now.
Coming together for Philip Island next January.
Late model Yamaha blue - tank/fairing will be a bit like Roberts colours.

Sure is pretty. frame the top shock mount design is a little odd though can't figure out why its like that.(yes i realise it is a replica)
form rather than function? Still rather purposeful and elegant.

[Ocean1]

Sure is pretty. frame the top shock mount design is a little odd though can't figure out why its like that.(yes i realise it is a replica)
form rather than function? Still rather purposeful and elegant.

Does look good.
Can I guess? Most monoshocks were the opposite of rising rate, the extended shock minimises that "incorrect" rate of change. It also feeds the rear suspension forces into the strongest part of the frame.

[Wolfie's Girl]

Nice! Great pictures of the mounts.
Does it vibrate a lot? Anything done to the engine besides the pipe?

Hi ChrisC, it isn't too bad. It doesn't vibrate anymore than the original '93 RS 125 engine of the donor bike. As to the engine mods, it has a little bit of porting but that is it, my arse dyno says about 17-18hp. I have just put an OKO 24mm on it this week, and I am not having much luck tuning it at the mo, it doesn't want to pull off the bottom, it's a little lean down low, and it won't idle at all, so i may put the original GP carb back on so that I can go up to the track tomorrow. I will hopefully get on the dyno to tune the carb if F5Dave gets his motor back together and we can get to the dyno.

[husaberg]

Does look good.
Can I guess? Most monoshocks were the opposite of rising rate, the extended shock minimises that "incorrect" rate of change. It also feeds the rear suspension forces into the strongest part of the frame.

er...The mount was my query.......
Ok must have not explained it properly........
The attachment should clear that up......

Fred McLean and Peter Pinion made their first TZ frame in Addington, New Zealand around 1976 utilising 10-10 gauge cold drawn seamless tube steel with very few bends and radical bracing in line with their experiences building racing car chassis. The frame had no bottom frame rails and utilised just the top front engine mount and had a trick combined rear engine mount - swingarm pivot.

They claimed their complete TZ350 weighed 13kg less than a stock TZ350 of the time and apparently Marco Lucchinelli asked them three times to ride it when he visited New Zealand and wanted to take one back to Europe with him. It's said that just 6 or 7 were ever made.

Addington were the boys working for the railways.

[RomeuPT]

Frits I am using the flywheel program to calculate the roller for the dyno project, input four is saying to insert 0 "zero" for measuring by the rear whell. But when I insert zero it does not accept the value and is back waiting for the same input.

Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks

RESOLVED

[RomeuPT]

Are this values acceptable for a start? It's a dyno for 2 tuned strokes from 50cc to 200cc or more

Thanks

[Frits Overmars]

Are this values acceptable for a start? It's a dyno for 2 tuned strokes from 50cc to 200cc or more.

They are more or less acceptable. If you wish to measure all the way from 6000 to 15000 rpm, you will certainly have to pass through the torque dip at 2/3 of max.torqe rpm and this may give a mispresentation of the total acceleration time; most of this time will be spent getting through that dip.
Of course you will want to measure an 'entire' power curve occasionally, but in order to establish the flywheel dimensions for a given task it will be wiser to feed the flywheel program with the initial and final rpm values of the power band, and a matching acceleration time of maybe 5 to 6 seconds.

[Ocean1]

er...The mount was my query.......
Ok must have not explained it properly........
The attachment should clear that up......

Ah, yes. No, the words were crafted OK, was the interpretation at fault.

The mount looks good though, deals with the load distribution into the frame well without undue weight...

[chrisc]

Hi ChrisC, it isn't too bad. It doesn't vibrate anymore than the original '93 RS 125 engine of the donor bike. As to the engine mods, it has a little bit of porting but that is it, my arse dyno says about 17-18hp. I have just put an OKO 24mm on it this week, and I am not having much luck tuning it at the mo, it doesn't want to pull off the bottom, it's a little lean down low, and it won't idle at all, so i may put the original GP carb back on so that I can go up to the track tomorrow. I will hopefully get on the dyno to tune the carb if F5Dave gets his motor back together and we can get to the dyno.

Sounds good! I really should have fitted my engine and got it running in my NF4 chassis before diving balls deep into the casings and cylinder with a grinding burr but ah well. Seeing yours going is some good motivation.
I believe ESE boys made some respectable power (20rwhp or slightly more?) with the stock carb before switching to a 24mm.

[wobbly]

Yea the frame is pretty much as Fred designed it in 79 except for some additional tubes to close triangles correctly, and I redesigned the rear engine mount.
The original had rubber bushes within the tube spacer between the swingarm bearing bosses.
This has the bushes fitted into alloy bosses welded onto the case - much stronger as confirmed by FEA of my CAD frame model.
That front mono mount is not how I would have done it,but changing the design too radically to save a few grams , wouldnt then be a period legal copy so much.
I added a couple of triangle corner plates to strengthen the swingarm mount bosses, as I have an original Frepin here, that had a 700 grafted in, and the RH swingarm mount
had been bent forward by the chain pull.
Not that the 400 will have as much snot as a 700 but good design is always better if it reduces deforming frame stress.
The mono is slightly rising rate, as the framework above the swingarm initially pushes at an angle and approaches a right angle to the shock centre line at near on full compression.