Roastbusters

[pzkpfw]

No problem with any of that.
There needs to be an investigation into the circumstances around the complaints by the four women and severe action taken if guilt is proven.
However, in the meantime we are constantly bombarded by the pictures of two young men, who at the moment are only guilty of being misogynistic dickheads. On this basis, half the men on KB deserve public approbation and to lose their jobs.
If the young girls deserve justice, then the young boys also deserve the presumption of innocence until a case is tried and also to have their rights to a fair trial not prejudiced by the hysteria of the media and public. Almost every aspect of this whole sorry chapter is disgraceful and does not reflect well on NZ society, media and law enforcement.

Well, yeah, that's why I had those "I agree with ..." bits in my post.

What I'm reacting to in that post, is posts like that one by Kickaha, that read less like hysteria-prevention, and more like simple denial.

Yes, there's a media beat-up going on (I even saw this all reported on CNN) but you don't combat that by implying nothing (or nothing consequential) happened.



Frankly, even if (and I don't believe this) all the events were pure fabrication (which would mean the four girls who came forward made up stories that "happened to match" the facebook brags by those boys) - I still would expect some action to be taken. Boys aged 18 bragging about getting 13 year old girls drunk to have group sex with them - is dodgy enough alone.

It turns out one of these boys was recommended to go for counselling of some sort - so there was some wet bus ticket acknowledgement from the cops that there was an issue to be addressed.

We can't pretend this was a non-event.

[mashman]

I'm unsurprised that you’ve come up with some silly conspiracy theory, but evidence is evidence, and unfortunately at the moment in this case “they” don't have any. It is sadly typical of cases involving children that parents will try to stop a complaint, whereas the cases you mentioned the witnesses were all adults who had been molested as children.

It's not a conspiracy theory. Of course there's evidence as there is testimony. Granted it's unsubstantiated, but it's still evidence.

So these girls have to wait until they're adults before they get taken seriously?

[Oscar]

It's not a conspiracy theory. Of course there's evidence as there is testimony. Granted it's unsubstantiated, but it's still evidence.

So these girls have to wait until they're adults before they get taken seriously?

Are you saying someone should force them to testify?
If the cops are to be believed (yes, I know), three girls made accusations against these creeps and then withdrew them, or failed to proceed to the next step.
Shall we prosecute on hearsay?
Take them to Facebook Supreme Court?

[Oscar]

i have fixed this for you. (the women were 13 - 15 at the age when the offending occured, that makes them girls)

I referred to them as "young girls" in the next sentence.

[mashman]

Are you saying someone should force them to testify?
If the cops are to be believed (yes, I know), three girls made accusations against these creeps and then withdrew them, or failed to proceed to the next step.
Shall we prosecute on hearsay?
Take them to Facebook Supreme Court?

We already prosecute on hearsay. Plenty of people pick a guy out of a identity parade and that person gets prosecuted. They have made statements and that should be enough testimony to put the burden of proof on to the boys to have to prove themselves innocent. If they do that, then meh, they're free and the girls will have to live with the result. Isn't that the way things work?

[Smifffy]

We already prosecute on hearsay. Plenty of people pick a guy out of a identity parade and that person gets prosecuted. They have made statements and that should be enough testimony to put the burden of proof on to the boys to have to prove themselves innocent. If they do that, then meh, they're free and the girls will have to live with the result. Isn't that the way things work?

I thought the claim has always been that the burden of proof is for the prosecution to prove them guilty. Not for them to have to prove innocence. Of course in practice I believe it's usually more as you say.

NZ justice system. Meh.

[Oscar]

We already prosecute on hearsay. Plenty of people pick a guy out of a identity parade and that person gets prosecuted. They have made statements and that should be enough testimony to put the burden of proof on to the boys to have to prove themselves innocent. If they do that, then meh, they're free and the girls will have to live with the result. Isn't that the way things work?

Come back when you've mastered the definition of "Hearsay".

http://r127.publications.lawcom.govt...ements/Hearsay

[Smifffy]

Are you saying someone should force them to testify?
If the cops are to be believed (yes, I know), three girls made accusations against these creeps and then withdrew them, or failed to proceed to the next step.
Shall we prosecute on hearsay?
Take them to Facebook Supreme Court?

Probably had Brad Shipton as a case officer...

[Katman]

Probably had Brad Shipton as a case officer...

With Bob Schollum playing the role of 'good cop'.

[mashman]

I thought the claim has always been that the burden of proof is for the prosecution to prove them guilty. Not for them to have to prove innocence. Of course in practice I believe it's usually more as you say.

NZ justice system. Meh.

Yup that's the way it should be, but the case has to get there first and as you highlight, the consistency of burden of proof seems to leave a lot to be desired. It's every justice system innit.

Come back when you've mastered the definition of "Hearsay".

http://r127.publications.lawcom.govt...ements/Hearsay

I'll stop

"1 A hearsay statement is admissible in any proceeding if-

(a) the circumstances relating to the statement provide reasonable assurance that the statement is reliable"

right there. If the only defence for rape needs to be, I didn't fuck her, and that result is there being no case to answer... then there's something every so slightly wrong in the translation of "hearsay" evidence. Given there are at least 4 complaints, with evidence that there are others according to police/media reports, wouldn't you say that "hearsay" in this case is likely more than reasonable?

[Oscar]

I'll stop

"1 A hearsay statement is admissible in any proceeding if-

(a) the circumstances relating to the statement provide reasonable assurance that the statement is reliable"

right there. If the only defence for rape needs to be, I didn't fuck her, and that result is there being no case to answer... then there's something every so slightly wrong in the translation of "hearsay" evidence. Given there are at least 4 complaints, with evidence that there are others according to police/media reports, wouldn't you say that "hearsay" in this case is likely more than reasonable?

What statement?

The ones that the girls made?
You can't prosecute using an interview with someone who declined to make a complaint.

The stuff on line?
If the cops prosecuted based on what was said on line, you'd have been put away years ago.

[blue rider]

I referred to them as "young girls" in the next sentence.

you are to kind.

fact you should have never referred to them as women. I am 45 years old, i am a women. At age 13 I was a girl. Full stop.

as for media hype, If, and that is a capital IF, the police would have acted somewhat more professionally, i don't think it would have gone that far.

This is not so much about a bunch of dickless wonders bragging about drugging girls to rape them. This is about the police keeping watch on a FB page where such claims are made, and do nothing - by their own admission. This is about the Police doing nothing when claims are being made, but then publicly stating that NO Victim was BRAVE enough to come forward and give the Police something to prosecute on.

This is about the eternal question, what is rape. It appears that really there are different interpretation, i.e. she is not a bloody mess....maybe she liked it. She was drunk.....she should have known better. She was not or maybe was a Virgin....where were the parents. That skirt to short.....why i thought she was asking for it.

There is no conspiracy here. The boys bragged they did, some of their friends imply they did, some victims said they did.....maybe they did.

Can it be prosecuted....by the mother, do you have any idea how many rapes are never even mentioned out loud to parents, partners, siblings? Do you have any idea how many raped women never ever mention it, just keep it down, buried in the darkest hole of the soul?
As i stated earlier, most women (and men) don't even bother to go to the police and lay claim. There is a reason for it, and the rapists get away.

Now that is something to ponder about.

Pity with these punks? They should have just not considered themselves Rapists, promoting Chloroform to get girls on a Date etc etc. If they would have choose not to do these vile videos, they would not be in any problem.

You see it is not the victims responsibility to prevent rape. It is up to rapists not to rape.

[Oscar]

you are to kind.

fact you should have never referred to them as women. I am 45 years old, i am a women. At age 13 I was a girl. Full stop.

You call 'em what you want - I'll refer to them anyway I want.
As far as I'm concerned they were girls at 13 and now they're young women.


It's oversensitive semantic shit like this that's strangling this country.

[mashman]

What statement?

The ones that the girls made?
You can't prosecute using an interview with someone who declined to make a complaint.

The stuff on line?
If the cops prosecuted based on what was said on line, you'd have been put away years ago.

"In a statement emailed to media this morning, police said only one of the four complaints was 'formal', "where an official statement was made by way of an evidential video interview"."

[Ender EnZed]

Probably had Brad Shipton as a case officer...

With Bob Schollum playing the role of 'good cop'.

Speaking of those two and since this thread is a little lacking in wild speculation...

It'd be quite something if Beraiah Hales turned out to be in any way related to Steve and his brother Warren Hales.