My first poll for the NZ public

[bogan]

Well, there are always people that will invent for the sake of inventing, they however tend to be of the eccentric persuasion. Market Forces however can help shape and drive inspiration - probably my favorite example would be James Dyson - by seeing what is the current method and seeing it's difficiencies, and seeing the oppertunity to either:

a) profit
b) decrease consumer TCO
c) save time

this can then drive inspiration and innovation. Sure the last option will exist in an RBE, but if no one is spending all their time at work, what incentive is there to save time?

As for the cheap and nasty products - I actually disagree - I think we will see MORE of them in an RBE - afterall there is no barrier to throw an item away and get a new one and there is no incentive to spend the extra time to make a superior product (ie no ability to sell at a higher price point, to put a premium on quality) - plus with everyone being able to have anything, there will be an increase pressure on the manufacturer to meet demand: quality will suffer.



Don't they do that every year for ComicCon?

Is that market forces or consumer feedback though? I spend a lot of time on the kickstarter tech section these days, most of those cunts just want to make a good product and listen to feedback to do that.

On the other hand, an RBE would slow down the revision cycles of consumer products, intel's tick-tock (now PAO or whatever) will turn to a 'when I'm good and fucking ready', coupled with a change in consumer attitudes (I think we can agree this is also required) to not caring about the model number so much as the functionality. Perhaps of additional concern is people outsourcing customisation of their shit instead, less efficient than mass production. There can't be an increase in pressure, as there would be no consequence for the manufacturer if they didn't; that also supposes production would not be plentiful, which is another identified prerequisite to an rbe. Large scale production shortfalls will lead to a 'market' crash like we've never seen before with an rbe.

Yeh, but I'd let some of them costume clad hotties in for a bit of light pegging...

I'd just like to point out this wonderful example of Circular Logic:

An RBE will work (paraphrased)

Coz RBE. Duh.

10/10

Additionally (and also paraphrased): "you don't understand it cos you don't agree with me, so I can dismiss your opinion based on it's lack of understanding" then "fuck this shit is awesome, everyone agrees with it"

[mashman]

Well they're both coherent theories, you should try to understand them sometime

I do understand them. Have also posted along those very lines.

[bogan]

I do understand them. Have also posted along those very lines.

Good, so to summarise, rbe can mean any one of a thousand different things. Money is no barrier towards it, and in fact facilitates our progress down this path. It hasn't come about yet because it simply won't work with today's people and technology. Supporting progress through the financial system is therefor the most efficient way to get to utopia. #goteammoney #/thread

[mashman]

Good, so to summarise, rbe can mean any one of a thousand different things. Money is no barrier towards it, and in fact facilitates our progress down this path. It hasn't come about yet because it simply won't work with today's people and technology. Supporting progress through the financial system is therefor the most efficient way to get to utopia. #goteammoney #/thread

Any one of a thousand things, so long as money isn't involved. You can't use money to do many things that an RBE can. Hence the need for RBE. Money is the barrier preventing those things from happening and an RBE existing. That RBE will come from the financial economy means nought more than it was there before RBE and therefore it is inevitable that that's the order things will happen. Other than that, the financial system is facilitating more damage than good. But hey, your understanding is just as cool.

[bogan]

Any one of a thousand things, so long as money isn't involved. You can't use money to do many things that an RBE can. Hence the need for RBE. Money is the barrier preventing those things from happening and an RBE existing. That RBE will come from the financial economy means nought more than it was there before RBE and therefore it is inevitable that that's the order things will happen. Other than that, the financial system is facilitating more damage than good. But hey, your understanding is just as cool.

Wrong, money certainly can be involved; it's what gets us there.

You can use money to do every single thing an RBE can, name one thing it prevents.

Wrong again, the progress society makes, using money, is what gets us to the point an rbe could become feasible.

If the financial system was facilitating more damage than good, why are we so astronomically better off than before we had it?

[mashman]

Wrong, money certainly can be involved; it's what gets us there.

You can use money to do every single thing an RBE can, name one thing it prevents.

Wrong again, the progress society makes, using money, is what gets us to the point an rbe could become feasible.

If the financial system was facilitating more damage than good, why are we so astronomically better off than before we had it?

No it isn't. People do.

It prevents some people from getting food.

No. that's people again.

Astronomically better off than before we had it? ... advancement is because money exists, else we'd have never advanced technologically otherwise bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Nice positive attitude right there. Coupled with:

It hasn't come about yet because it simply won't work with today's people and technology

Beaut bro

[bogan]

No it isn't. People do.

It prevents some people from getting food.

No. that's people again.

Astronomically better off than before we had it? ... advancement is because money exists, else we'd have never advanced technologically otherwise bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Nice positive attitude right there. Coupled with:



Beaut bro

People and money, money being the benchmark we can use to figure out when we are there.

No, that one is people as well, you can't claim all bad things are caused by money, and all good things are caused by people (that's just pure confirmation bias); either they are inextricably linked, or you choose one or the other. Moving forward, as money facilitates rbe type shift, more people have access to more resources, including food.

Are we astronomically better off before we had it or not? I said nothing about it being the sole cause; you need to work on your understanding. Not to mention that misses my point, were money bad, places that didn't adopt it would be better off, yet history shows the reverse is true.

Ok then, why else hasn't it come about? People know about it, the financial system is not a barrier to it, there are thousands of different versions; none have stuck, or even been implemented as far as I can tell. Why not? What other theories are there? The common theme across those thousand version is a dependence on production/consumption ration being positive, this has never been shown to be achievable with today's people and technology; hence why my statement is a reasonable one.

[mashman]

People and money, money being the benchmark we can use to figure out when we are there.

No, that one is people as well, you can't claim all bad things are caused by money, and all good things are caused by people (that's just pure confirmation bias); either they are inextricably linked, or you choose one or the other. Moving forward, as money facilitates rbe type shift, more people have access to more resources, including food.

Are we astronomically better off before we had it or not? I said nothing about it being the sole cause; you need to work on your understanding. Not to mention that misses my point, were money bad, places that didn't adopt it would be better off, yet history shows the reverse is true.

Ok then, why else hasn't it come about? People know about it, the financial system is not a barrier to it, there are thousands of different versions; none have stuck, or even been implemented as far as I can tell. Why not? What other theories are there? The common theme across those thousand version is a dependence on production/consumption ration being positive, this has never been shown to be achievable with today's people and technology; hence why my statement is a reasonable one.

Nope. Just people.

I didn't claim anything of the sought. But if that's as far as your understanding is letting you go, meh.

But you're claiming that we wouldn't be so well off had we not had money. Erm...

I'm not saying it's the sole cause either. It's on top of the list by a long way though.

Most people I ask about it have never heard of RBE. So no, people don't know about it. Your statement was, as I expected. Vacuous.

[bogan]

Nope. Just people.

I didn't claim anything of the sought. But if that's as far as your understanding is letting you go, meh.

But you're claiming that we wouldn't be so well off had we not had money. Erm...

I'm not saying it's the sole cause either. It's on top of the list by a long way though.

Most people I ask about it have never heard of RBE. So no, people don't know about it. Your statement was, as I expected. Vacuous.

We can use money for the bench mark by its irrelevancy. You can see it with some people already today, just get whatever they want, because their money supply allows it. As we grow in technology and productivity, more people can join this group; until even the dolists have no unfulfilled wants. So yes, it absolutely is money as well. More so than people in fact, how are people going to accurately tell you they are ready?

Well you claimed production is brought by only people, and that a lack of resources is by money; thus categorising the people doing good, and money being bad. When the reality is they are inextricably linked.

I am, what part are you having difficulty with? Moeny makes us better off, or worse off (according to you), so it is only logical to find a group in each category and compare the result; money-less groups were left behind, and chose to adopt the economy to become better off, nobody has gone back the other way. Progress.

What about money stops an rbe? you keep telling us you've got a hundred people to understand what an rbe is, that's ample for a startup group. Why has nothing got off the ground due to your 'efforts', why has nothing got off the ground anywhere else due to the hundreds of thousands of other 'rbe' proponent's efforts? You do not need a whole country's population to implement one, not is it even desireable to have; we've agreed on that in the past. If it is such a good thing, why are those proposing it not living it? That simple question puts lie to all the conjecture about it being people doing good, and money doing bad.

[mashman]

We can use money for the bench mark by its irrelevancy. You can see it with some people already today, just get whatever they want, because their money supply allows it. As we grow in technology and productivity, more people can join this group; until even the dolists have no unfulfilled wants. So yes, it absolutely is money as well. More so than people in fact, how are people going to accurately tell you they are ready?

Well you claimed production is brought by only people, and that a lack of resources is by money; thus categorising the people doing good, and money being bad. When the reality is they are inextricably linked.

I am, what part are you having difficulty with? Moeny makes us better off, or worse off (according to you), so it is only logical to find a group in each category and compare the result; money-less groups were left behind, and chose to adopt the economy to become better off, nobody has gone back the other way. Progress.

What about money stops an rbe? you keep telling us you've got a hundred people to understand what an rbe is, that's ample for a startup group. Why has nothing got off the ground due to your 'efforts', why has nothing got off the ground anywhere else due to the hundreds of thousands of other 'rbe' proponent's efforts? You do not need a whole country's population to implement one, not is it even desireable to have; we've agreed on that in the past. If it is such a good thing, why are those proposing it not living it? That simple question puts lie to all the conjecture about it being people doing good, and money doing bad.

Certainly one way to do it.

I was referring to stuff getting done and not getting done. Like, cancer drugs availability to budget despite the fact that the drugs are in a warehouse ready to go where they're needed... so long as they can afford it. That's entirely a money problem. And it isn't the only problem by a long way.

Left behind? Ok

They're not all people I know. They're just people I bump into. Friends of friends. Bloke down t pub etc... and I've not started anything to get off the ground yet. But they seem to understand that when they are offered RBE as a choice, they'll vote for it. As for not living it currently.... jobs and needing money n stuff to set that sort of thing up. Hell, TVP have had long enough to build a city. Have they? Or haven't they got enough money? I'm sure you'll agree that they have some expertise after all, so why haven't they built it?

[bogan]

Certainly one way to do it.

I was referring to stuff getting done and not getting done. Like, cancer drugs availability to budget despite the fact that the drugs are in a warehouse ready to go where they're needed... so long as they can afford it. That's entirely a money problem. And it isn't the only problem by a long way.

Left behind? Ok

They're not all people I know. They're just people I bump into. Friends of friends. Bloke down t pub etc... and I've not started anything to get off the ground yet. But they seem to understand that when they are offered RBE as a choice, they'll vote for it. As for not living it currently.... jobs and needing money n stuff to set that sort of thing up. Hell, TVP have had long enough to build a city. Have they? Or haven't they got enough money? I'm sure you'll agree that they have some expertise after all, so why haven't they built it?

That's production/consumption as well, albeit one step removed, production has to include development. Software is another example of this.

Well, are they still with us? no? then they were left behind; not difficult to understand.

Vote for it? what is that shit, it's not going to be voted in, we've been over that; you can't force people to be in an rbe. There's no need for massive investment, that's just a road block you are putting in your own way; it should also be a red flag since the sustainability criteria is production/conumption, if this is positive (and it needs to be) it would make money from an outside perspective. No city from TVP, as I said, the technology and the people are not ready, people proposing a way to remove reliance on money should not start their system by relying on money, wouldn't you think?

[mashman]

That's production/consumption as well, albeit one step removed, production has to include development. Software is another example of this.

Well, are they still with us? no? then they were left behind; not difficult to understand.

Vote for it? what is that shit, it's not going to be voted in, we've been over that; you can't force people to be in an rbe. There's no need for massive investment, that's just a road block you are putting in your own way; it should also be a red flag since the sustainability criteria is production/conumption, if this is positive (and it needs to be) it would make money from an outside perspective. No city from TVP, as I said, the technology and the people are not ready, people proposing a way to remove reliance on money should not start their system by relying on money, wouldn't you think?

More an allocation problem.



bwaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... Where to start. How do you know when people are ready? Ask them to vote for it so that they can get what they want. Democracy. That thing you keep crowing about. Uber

New favourite: TVP don't have the technology or people to build their city. Yeah, that's the problem. You've nailed it on the head there. Jacques Fresco, a well respected designer, isn't ready to build a city that he claimed could be built with the technology that was available in the 60's. No, I wouldn't think that TVP aren't ready. I'd think that they've identified the thing that's stopping them from building the city. But cheers for teh lulz and noo fave.

[bogan]

More an allocation problem.



bwaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... Where to start. How do you know when people are ready? Ask them to vote for it so that they can get what they want. Democracy. That thing you keep crowing about. Uber

New favourite: TVP don't have the technology or people to build their city. Yeah, that's the problem. You've nailed it on the head there. Jacques Fresco, a well respected designer, isn't ready to build a city that he claimed could be built with the technology that was available in the 60's. No, I wouldn't think that TVP aren't ready. I'd think that they've identified the thing that's stopping them from building the city. But cheers for teh lulz and noo fave.

Allocation of the current resource, which has been developed by people's production. You can't unlink the development with the goods production, otherwise things won't continue to be developed.

No, they are ready when they show it works. Asking them relys on them having an adequate understanding of all the implications, instead of just being in it for free shit and not working. Democracy works with an economy to keep those who disagree with mass consensus productive. With an rbe, those who disagree with it can easily destroy it from within (that consumption/production balance again).

Build the city? that's not what holds an TVP back. How are you not understanding the consumption/production balance? That's is what the technology and people do not support. You do not need a city to start this stuff. You can't depend on an injection of money to show everyone you don't need money FFS

[mashman]

Allocation of the current resource, which has been developed by people's production. You can't unlink the development with the goods production, otherwise things won't continue to be developed.

No, they are ready when they show it works. Asking them relys on them having an adequate understanding of all the implications, instead of just being in it for free shit and not working. Democracy works with an economy to keep those who disagree with mass consensus productive. With an rbe, those who disagree with it can easily destroy it from within (that consumption/production balance again).

Build the city? that's not what holds an TVP back. How are you not understanding the consumption/production balance? That's is what the technology and people do not support. You do not need a city to start this stuff. You can't depend on an injection of money to show everyone you don't need money FFS

Probably because I didn't unlink them. You did on my behalf, again.

And back to people bashing.

Not A TVP, but the TVP. Jacques has always wanted to build that city. I can see why. I'd want one built too. I was talking about building a city, not using the construction as a symbol. I do love your misunderstandings though.

[bogan]

Probably because I didn't unlink them. You did on my behalf, again.

And back to people bashing.

Not A TVP, but the TVP. Jacques has always wanted to build that city. I can see why. I'd want one built too. I was talking about building a city, not using the construction as a symbol. I do love your misunderstandings though.

Great, so they are still linked, and it still requires a lot of production to make a vaccine/software/etc. Money doesn't prevent those things from happening (since they clearly are happening).

People bashing? I'm just being realistic. Democracy works because an economy provides the carrot and the stick. With neither, those who wish to see an rbe fail can do so very easily. With neither, those who are unable to effectively self regulate their production/consumption will be a burden, and with enough, it will fail too. Do you want to see it fail? Is that why you ignore this stuff?

I'd want to build one too, doesn't mean it is integral to an rbe. I'm talking about the rbe's absence; I can understand your desire to change the subject, but such misdirection is not warranted. Why is there no rbe? Don't give me that shit about them not having enough money to build a city, rbe is about pooling resources and self moderating the production/consumption ratio; it's not about getting a flash new city; the materialistic implication that flash new shit is required suggests you've missunderstood the concept entirely.