Feminists going full retard.

[FJRider]

Well, if I was to use your logic against you - I'd say that in the core idea of Communism there is no reference to Forced participation....

Do you see the problem?

We define Communism by what it's actions are, not solely by what it's theory states.

Same with Feminism.

I'd say that in the core idea in a communist society ... is ... there is no reference to having a choice about your participation. The foundation of a free society is ALL about freedom of choice.

The sticking point in a free society is ... some (many) are offended by the vocal and public choices of other members of that "free" society. Thus ... you are free to choose ... but NOT free to offend.

Although this thread is about feminists ... the main basis of any activist group is to gain activity in areas ... the people in authority say they cannot.

There are still gender specific occupations in NZ ... that women (and men) are barred from, simply because it may cause offense to those they work for and with. Many men in employment roles (formally women only) ... do not get paid more than women. Should it not be a case of the proven ability to do the job ... not your sex ... that determines how much you are paid .. ??

Perhaps ... those that wish to change the "Patriarchal Systems" in another country ... should attempt the start of the process in that country.

How a group is defined is based usually on its members common goal(s). Not just their personal beliefs in what they think they should be allowed to do as a group. Motorcyclists included. Remember ... motorcyclists are a minority in this country. Even if the majority of that minority wants change ... it doesn't automatically make those changes right.

[yokel]

Feminists are not the brightest lot, this chick sounds just like Bogan.

[TheDemonLord]

The standard of proof would be representative surveys, which are not biased towards activity, just self identification. Ie, are you a feminist? yes, do you believe women should be treated differently and preferentially to men as part of the feminism principals (or words to that effect).

So I've got a few surveys:

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/cho...ines__2_.0.pdf

Note, it's not a very good survey (small sample size) - what I do find interesting is that 18% of respondents self identify as Feminist, and 85% believe in the Equality of Women. I think its a fair assumption that all of the 18% of Feminists agree with this goal - which means there is 67% of people who by proxy don't believe that Feminism (as it currently stands) is about the equality of Women.

Additional survey here - http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf again - with very similar numbers (20% Feminists, 82% gender equality)

A Further Survey (which directly play into my point about Universities churning out Feminist Activists) http://www.hercampus.com/life/hcs-fe...eid=e897e01d9f

Also this rather interesting stat - 89.5% of the respondents believe in a Wage Gap.

I'd say that's a rather large nail in your argument that it's a small minority and most Feminists don't believe it and that Feminist Academia isn't representative of Feminism as a whole/key in driving Feminist theory.

But I would be interested in a better surveys - however the Data on hand does line up with the positions I hold.

The third metric is the only one that is applicable as a generalised statement. If the chancellor had kept this in mind he would still have a job.

And what if the Chancellor was referring to the First Metric?

It is relevant to your opinion of feminism, and the shortfalls in it you perceive. It is not relevant to the current discussion points.

Disagree - it is relevant to understanding what Feminism is, how it behaves (as a group) and why it behaved in that manner.

[bogan]

So I've got a few surveys:

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/cho...ines__2_.0.pdf

Note, it's not a very good survey (small sample size) - what I do find interesting is that 18% of respondents self identify as Feminist, and 85% believe in the Equality of Women. I think its a fair assumption that all of the 18% of Feminists agree with this goal - which means there is 67% of people who by proxy don't believe that Feminism (as it currently stands) is about the equality of Women.

Additional survey here - http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf again - with very similar numbers (20% Feminists, 82% gender equality)

A Further Survey (which directly play into my point about Universities churning out Feminist Activists) http://www.hercampus.com/life/hcs-fe...eid=e897e01d9f

Also this rather interesting stat - 89.5% of the respondents believe in a Wage Gap.

I'd say that's a rather large nail in your argument that it's a small minority and most Feminists don't believe it and that Feminist Academia isn't representative of Feminism as a whole/key in driving Feminist theory.

But I would be interested in a better surveys - however the Data on hand does line up with the positions I hold.



And what if the Chancellor was referring to the First Metric?



Disagree - it is relevant to understanding what Feminism is, how it behaves (as a group) and why it behaved in that manner.

Now those surveys do make a compelling point that the public opinion of feminism does not align well with the original goal of equality. That third link showing feminist beliefs seems to be the closest to what I was after, "What does feminism mean to you?" got 5% anti-men, the other options were all equality based with the lowest getting 66%. So while I'll concede the public opinion seems to be much closer to your own, what they themselves actually stand for, still appears to be equality, and it remains what their majority stand for that is being discussed, not the public opinion of that.

Which raises an interesting notion, by grouping the 5% (this particular number is likely low due to the negative tone in the answer choice, but the point remains) of anti-men feminists with the other 95%, surely you've just increased the apparent following of the extremists. Would it not be better to take just that 5% out, so they remain a smaller number, thus a lesser force/issue?

If he was referring to the first metric he should have a) made certain to qualify it as such b) not done so, since it is not applicable.

An unsuitable analogy, and strawman argument may be relevant to your understanding, but my contention is that your understanding is wrong due to such illogic, so those things are certainly not relevant to me.

[TheDemonLord]

Now those surveys do make a compelling point that the public opinion of feminism does not align well with the original goal of equality.

And why is that? Either the entire public are under some shared delusion, or Feminism has some 'splaining to do...

That third link showing feminist beliefs seems to be the closest to what I was after, "What does feminism mean to you?" got 5% anti-men, the other options were all equality based with the lowest getting 66%. So while I'll concede the public opinion seems to be much closer to your own, what they themselves actually stand for, still appears to be equality, and it remains what their majority stand for that is being discussed, not the public opinion of that.

Yes..... I never said they didn't believe they stood for equality, I said by their actions they AREN'T standing for Equality. So whilst 5% said they were anti-men, 90% said they believed in a Pay Gap - which is a Myth. Based on that erroneous belief, they then go out and try to enact policy to redress a non-existent inbalance - and by extension, that ends up being Anti-Men.

Which raises an interesting notion, by grouping the 5% (this particular number is likely low due to the negative tone in the answer choice, but the point remains) of anti-men feminists with the other 95%, surely you've just increased the apparent following of the extremists. Would it not be better to take just that 5% out, so they remain a smaller number, thus a lesser force/issue?

Who is Strawmanning who? I've made no claims as to the 5% who are openly anti-men. only that 90% of them believe in something that isn't real, then use this belief to push legislation and policy that is discriminatory which as a practical result of the groups actions, makes it anti-men.

If he was referring to the first metric he should have a) made certain to qualify it as such b) not done so, since it is not applicable.

Would it not be prudent to seek clarification before sending someone to the gallows? Or is his crime of Heresy so grave as to warrant execution without a trial?

An unsuitable analogy, and strawman argument may be relevant to your understanding, but my contention is that your understanding is wrong due to such illogic, so those things are certainly not relevant to me.

You are entitled to that position, as I am entitled to say that the formation of it was as a result of interacting with Feminists.

[bogan]

And why is that? Either the entire public are under some shared delusion, or Feminism has some 'splaining to do...



Yes..... I never said they didn't believe they stood for equality, I said by their actions they AREN'T standing for Equality. So whilst 5% said they were anti-men, 90% said they believed in a Pay Gap - which is a Myth. Based on that erroneous belief, they then go out and try to enact policy to redress a non-existent inbalance - and by extension, that ends up being Anti-Men.



Who is Strawmanning who? I've made no claims as to the 5% who are openly anti-men. only that 90% of them believe in something that isn't real, then use this belief to push legislation and policy that is discriminatory which as a practical result of the groups actions, makes it anti-men.



Would it not be prudent to seek clarification before sending someone to the gallows? Or is his crime of Heresy so grave as to warrant execution without a trial?



You are entitled to that position, as I am entitled to say that the formation of it was as a result of interacting with Feminists.

Or a vocal minority is distorting popular opinion of the group.

my contention is that Feminism is not for Equality.

Nothing about actions there? And since equality has pretty much been achieved, the actions of those simply after equality have dried up; so it is illogical to use action as a measure of majority opinion for the group.

It was an interesting notion, not a counterargument, so not a strawman either.

He resigned, so he wasn't sent to the gallows. Simply adding such an inapplicable statement to the mix shows gender bias, clarification does not remove that; so I believe the public response was justified.

[yokel]

Or a vocal minority is distorting popular opinion of the group.



Nothing about actions there? And since equality has pretty much been achieved, the actions of those simply after equality have dried up; so it is illogical to use action as a measure of majority opinion for the group.

It was an interesting notion, not a counterargument, so not a strawman either.

He resigned, so he wasn't sent to the gallows. Simply adding such an inapplicable statement to the mix shows gender bias, clarification does not remove that; so I believe the public response was justified.

Hey dummy, do you know where babies come from?
When someone gives birth, why is it called "going into labour" ?

An overly vocal minority is not a public response.

[TheDemonLord]

Or a vocal minority is distorting popular opinion of the group.

Which would be a valid option, if 90% of them didn't believe in something proven false. 90% is not a minority.... Not to mention this is in Academia...

Nothing about actions there? And since equality has pretty much been achieved, the actions of those simply after equality have dried up; so it is illogical to use action as a measure of majority opinion for the group.

Or the other options - people that were feminists saw what Feminism had become and walked away or they had achieved their goals and hung up their laurels - you don't see many abolitionists round these days....

He resigned, so he wasn't sent to the gallows. Simply adding such an inapplicable statement to the mix shows gender bias, clarification does not remove that; so I believe the public response was justified.

Jump or be pushed - The public response would be justified if that same public acted the same way when a woman in power says something ill-thought out and can be construed as Sexist, but they don't. That is my issue here:

Man says something that could be interpreted as sexist: "FETCH THE PITCHFORKS! BURN HIM! BUUUUUURN!"
Woman says something that could be interpreted as sexist: ~the sound of crickets and tumbleweed rolling by~

[yokel]

this adds some balance, kinda unusual for Stuff.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/877117...ents-on-gender

At the end of the day , men's words get held to a higher standard than women because men are more important. all women have to say is pointless drivel.(well most of the time)

[bogan]

Which would be a valid option, if 90% of them didn't believe in something proven false. 90% is not a minority.... Not to mention this is in Academia...



Or the other options - people that were feminists saw what Feminism had become and walked away or they had achieved their goals and hung up their laurels - you don't see many abolitionists round these days....



Jump or be pushed - The public response would be justified if that same public acted the same way when a woman in power says something ill-thought out and can be construed as Sexist, but they don't. That is my issue here:

Man says something that could be interpreted as sexist: "FETCH THE PITCHFORKS! BURN HIM! BUUUUUURN!"
Woman says something that could be interpreted as sexist: ~the sound of crickets and tumbleweed rolling by~

Strawman again, it doesn't matter that they believe in false info, since we are asking what their goal is; not what their actions are contributory to. Because you can fix false information, but not an inequitable goal.

Being a feminist doesn't mean one must do action; you showed 18% still identify as feminist, what actions have you seen from them?

Obviously there remains a double standard when it comes to sexist comments; that doesn't excuse males making sexist comments simply cos females get away with it. Oh, and it was sexist, there is no other reasonable interpretation.

[TheDemonLord]

Strawman again, it doesn't matter that they believe in false info, since we are asking what their goal is; not what their actions are contributory to.

BS. Anyone can state what their goal is, however it is the Actions that speak to their true intentions.

Because you can fix false information, but not an inequitable goal.

Except you can't fix inequality with a Lie that generates MORE inequality. I could maybe give it a slight pass if there was a group of Figurehead Feminists or Academic Feminists who were actively working to dispel this myth. But there isn't, those who have (Christina Hoff Summers or Janice Fiamengo) are cast out of Heretics and branded as not Feminists by the Majority of Feminists.

Being a feminist doesn't mean one must do action; you showed 18% still identify as feminist, what actions have you seen from them?

Blocking attempts to expand the definition of Rape so that a Woman can rape a man
Twice
Actively opposing Shared Parenting as the Default situation for seperated couples with Children
The owner of the only Men's Abuse shelter in Canada committed Suicide after repeatedly failing to get Federal assistance for the ONLY Men's shelter in canada
Meanwhile, the Feminist lobby group has managed to secure $90 million Canacian for some 3000 odd shelters for Women in Canada.

Not to mention the protest clip of Big Red (not an isolated incident) where Feminist hate mob have protested events to talk about Men's issues.

Obviously there remains a double standard when it comes to sexist comments;

Glad you agree - can you point me to the Feminists (those who according to you are so ardently striving for equality) that are re-dressing this imbalance? The good Majority of Feminists who only want equality who speak either defend men in leadership positions when they make a poor comment or condemn Women in leadership positions for the same crime?

You can't? Something Something clearly not for equality something.

that doesn't excuse males making sexist comments simply cos females get away with it.

Well, it depends on which standard you want to apply - I for one think there should be quite a bit of leeway in the interpretation of ones speech, one should be given the opportunity to clarify and give context to statements, as opposed to the kneejerk, baying for blood reaction that we see.

Oh, and it was sexist, there is no other reasonable interpretation.

In the same way that it's racist to say Maoris are over-represented in the Prison population....

[husaberg]

There are currently billions of women who are smarter than you - so does that make you a substandard, below par male?

That would only be one of the reasons, the others are pretty obvious.

[bogan]

BS. Anyone can state what their goal is, however it is the Actions that speak to their true intentions.



Except you can't fix inequality with a Lie that generates MORE inequality. I could maybe give it a slight pass if there was a group of Figurehead Feminists or Academic Feminists who were actively working to dispel this myth. But there isn't, those who have (Christina Hoff Summers or Janice Fiamengo) are cast out of Heretics and branded as not Feminists by the Majority of Feminists.




Blocking attempts to expand the definition of Rape so that a Woman can rape a man
Twice
Actively opposing Shared Parenting as the Default situation for seperated couples with Children
The owner of the only Men's Abuse shelter in Canada committed Suicide after repeatedly failing to get Federal assistance for the ONLY Men's shelter in canada
Meanwhile, the Feminist lobby group has managed to secure $90 million Canacian for some 3000 odd shelters for Women in Canada.

Not to mention the protest clip of Big Red (not an isolated incident) where Feminist hate mob have protested events to talk about Men's issues.



Glad you agree - can you point me to the Feminists (those who according to you are so ardently striving for equality) that are re-dressing this imbalance? The good Majority of Feminists who only want equality who speak either defend men in leadership positions when they make a poor comment or condemn Women in leadership positions for the same crime?

You can't? Something Something clearly not for equality something.



Well, it depends on which standard you want to apply - I for one think there should be quite a bit of leeway in the interpretation of ones speech, one should be given the opportunity to clarify and give context to statements, as opposed to the kneejerk, baying for blood reaction that we see.



In the same way that it's racist to say Maoris are over-represented in the Prison population....

It is better to evaluate actions as a measure of true intentions where practical; but in this case inaction must be considered an action in its own right, and you do not seem to understand this point so keep focusing on the actions coming from feminist extremists instead of balancing this against the millions of feminists who see that with their equality achieved, it is time for inaction.

That's why you fix the false information with enlightening information, as is being done with the wage gap (non)issue.

Total number of activists in all those articles, less than 100k right? So the other hundred million or so have chosen inaction. Something something majority?

Can you point to the 80% who are also for equality but not feminists who are getting up in arms about females making sexist comments? no, then maybe being for equality doesn't mean doing that. We've come from a time of sexist discrimination against woman, so kid gloves are required around statements and actions which could regress that situation.

Not in the same way at all, since Maori's are statistically over-represented in the prison system (stats can be provided), but female vets careers being working 40% the duration of male vet careers? stats cannot be provided.

[TheDemonLord]

It is better to evaluate actions as a measure of true intentions where practical; but in this case inaction must be considered an action in its own right, and you do not seem to understand this point so keep focusing on the actions coming from feminist extremists instead of balancing this against the millions of feminist who see that with their equality, it is time for inaction.

Consider your argument:

"I'm a Metal head!"
So you listen to Metal?
"No."
So you go to see Metal Bands live?
"No."
So you wear Metal T-Shirts?
"No."

Not much of a Metalhead then....

You are trying to claim (without evidence or citation mind) that there is this vast majority, who don't participate in Feminist lobbying/activism, that don't participate in Feminist theory or discussion, that aren't part of Feminist academia, that do nothing associated with Modern Feminism - are in fact Feminists.

It's a laughable argument, especially when we look at what 90% of self identified Feminists actually believe.

That's why you fix the false information with enlightening information, as is being done with the wage gap (non)issue.

And what then, do you do, when the very structure(s) that should be fixing the False information are actively disseminating it? Does that not suggest there is something very wrong at the Core of what Feminism is today?

Total number of activists in all those articles, less than 100k right? So the other hundred million or so have chosen inaction. Something something majority?

Define how you derived that number? Considering that the NOW orgnanization (just one organization referenced) boasts numbers on their site (for various Feminist protests) of 500,000 - 1.15 Million, and revenue between 260-330 Million USD per annum.

Something Something Majority indeed.

Can you point to the 80% who are also for equality but not feminists who are getting up in arms about females making sexist comments? no, then maybe being for equality doesn't mean doing that.

They are the 80% who aren't getting up in arms when Men do it. See? Equality - don't care what Men say, don't care what Women say.

We've come from a time of sexist discrimination against woman, so kid gloves are required around statements and actions which could regress that situation.

So what you are saying is - that Women are so weak and feeble that a few ill-thought out words will revoke their right to vote, their right to equal pay and will send them straight back into the Kitchen to be bare-foot and pregnant.

Funnily enough - I happen to think that Women are stronger than that and can actually handle a little verbal critique.

Not in the same way at all, since Maori's are statistically over-represented in the prison system (stats can be provided), but female vets careers being working 40% the duration of male vet careers? stats cannot be provided.

And when we know that 90% of employed Men are full time, whereas around 66% of employed Women are full time in NZ, which by some quick and dirty maths gives a figure approximately around 40% if you take full time working men to be a value of 1, it's suddenly not quite as sexist as it first appears.

I don't know for certain if this extends to the Veterinary world - but based on what we know of other industries, it's closer to the statement that Maoris are over represented in the prisons rather than the racist statement 'All Maoris are criminals'

[bogan]

Consider your argument:

"I'm a Metal head!"
So you listen to Metal?
"No."
So you go to see Metal Bands live?
"No."
So you wear Metal T-Shirts?
"No."

Not much of a Metalhead then....

You are trying to claim (without evidence or citation mind) that there is this vast majority, who don't participate in Feminist lobbying/activism, that don't participate in Feminist theory or discussion, that aren't part of Feminist academia, that do nothing associated with Modern Feminism - are in fact Feminists.

It's a laughable argument, especially when we look at what 90% of self identified Feminists actually believe.



And what then, do you do, when the very structure(s) that should be fixing the False information are actively disseminating it? Does that not suggest there is something very wrong at the Core of what Feminism is today?



Define how you derived that number? Considering that the NOW orgnanization (just one organization referenced) boasts numbers on their site (for various Feminist protests) of 500,000 - 1.15 Million, and revenue between 260-330 Million USD per annum.

Something Something Majority indeed.



They are the 80% who aren't getting up in arms when Men do it. See? Equality - don't care what Men say, don't care what Women say.



So what you are saying is - that Women are so weak and feeble that a few ill-thought out words will revoke their right to vote, their right to equal pay and will send them straight back into the Kitchen to be bare-foot and pregnant.

Funnily enough - I happen to think that Women are stronger than that and can actually handle a little verbal critique.

Your analogies are getting worse. Try firemen instead.

On the contrary, I am pointing out that there is no evidence to say the majority of feminists has diverged from the original intent of equality. The burden of proof is on you to support your claim that they have. As I said, you still do not understand that a feminist can see their goal achieved, and decide to do no more; think of the fireman, they stop once the fire is put out, as that is their goal.

Nope, fake news is fucking everywhere, you can't put that on feminism.

Just made a wild guess since your articles rambled on about some other shit. Even if you consider all of those in that organisation to be extremists, they're still by far in the minority since 100>>1.15

How do you know the 80% for equality aren't getting up in arms when sexist comments are made by males?

I'm say that the disproportionate reaction to male/female sexist comments is because those things happened (rather disproportionately one could say). They still happen in some countries, and there are still people who wish to see it happen again in ours.

I don't know for certain if this extends to the Veterinary world

Neither did the chancellor... And your maths must have been pretty dirty to get 66/90 equal to 40% (it's 73 btw).