Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[TheDemonLord]

For how many years?

All you have to do is show me that data.

It was banned in 1993

[Katman]

It was banned in 1993

Is that your idea of data?

[TheDemonLord]

Vaccines work by stimulating the immune system.

What if the current vaccine schedule is over-stimulating an underdeveloped immune system?

Given what we (and when I say we - I mean people who've got some modicum of clue about Biology, which rules you out) know about Immune development, that's the complete opposite to reality.

The Immune system gets developed by encountering Viruses and Bacterium at small levels and fighting them off (Y'know - the same way that Vaccines work) - when kids live in a very clean environment, where everything is wiped down with Anti-bac wipes, they use anti-bac soap, they don't have 5+ Siblings to interact with, they don't play out in the street with the other large groups of family kids, they are supervised by Parents who prevent them from eating dirt, putting their fingers into (insert preferred bacterial breeding ground here) and then putting those same fingers in their mouths - their Immune system doesn't appear to develop properly.

So No.

[TheDemonLord]

Is that your idea of data?

Well, I'm assuming you can count? If that assumption is false, then I'll be happy to provide you with something more appropriate for your level - like my Daughters Crayon set.

[Katman]

Well, I'm assuming you can count? If that assumption is false, then I'll be happy to provide you with something more appropriate for your level - like my Daughters Crayon set.

Just show me where the WHO states that an average of 88 per year have died since 1993 then.

[Katman]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...67159/fulltext

This article states that 88 died in 2000.

Can you show me anywhere else that claims that an average of 88 have died each year in Japan since 1993?

Wouldn't you think that if 88 people were dying from measles each year in Japan since 1993, that The Lancet would mention it?

[husaberg]

And how many of those deaths were in countries with poor nutrition and hygiene standards?

So hundreds if not thousands die in Japan from measles
While in the UK over the same time Zero die and you think its nutrition and Hygiene?
Japan only has twice the population of the UK not 1000 times.?
So please explain

If its hygiene and nutrition why is it as soon as third world countries have the kids mass vaccinated the level of deaths drops overnight, Please explain?
Please explain how this this dramatic improvement in what you say is hygiene and nutrition happens at the exact same time they are vaccinated. please explain?

Also explain why people in EU countries are also dying of Measles , France, Germany, Romania. Ireland, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine please explain?

37 in the first six months of 2018 alone. So how is it a Third World disease?
More than 41 000 children and adults across Europe have been infected with measles in the first six months of 2018 and at least 37 people have died, show figures from the World Health Organization.1

The number of measles cases seen this year far exceeds the annual totals for every year this decade, which was highest in 2017 when there were 23 927 cases and lowest in 2016 when there were 5273.
The US
from 1989 to 1991 there were at least 123 measles deaths across the United States. Most of the deaths were otherwise healthy, without underlying medical problems.
They were all unvaccinated so explain how it was poor hygine and nutrician that caused these deaths.

One example is measles in the United States. When the first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963, rates of infection had been holding steady at around 400,000 cases a year. And while hygienic habits and sanitation didn’t change much over the following decade, the rate of measles infections dropped precipitously following the introduction of the vaccine, with only around 25,000 cases by 1970. Another example is Hib disease. According to CDC data, the incidence rate for this malady plummeted from 20,000 in 1990 to around 1,500 in 1993, following the introduction of the vaccine.

Olivia Dahl died with measles when she was 7-years-old (1962)
an unvaccinated 3-year-old died in Maricopa County (1970)
a 13-year-old girl who had previously been vaccinated with one of the first inactivated measles vaccines which were found to be ineffective and were replaced with the newer live vaccines died in Michigan (1978)
a 9-month-old died in Chicago (1990)
an unvaccinated 13-year-old died in Kansas (1990)
Tammy Bowman, an 11-year-old unvaccinated girl died in Michigan (1990)
an unvaccinated 13-year-old became the first person in the UK to die with measles in 14 years (2006)
a 14-year-old died of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE), a late complication of a natural measles infection (2015)
an immunocompromised woman died after she was exposed in an outbreak in Clallam County, Washington (2015)
a 6-year-old boy with leukemia died in Italy caught measles from his intentionally unvaccinated sibling (2017)
an 11-month-old unvaccinated infant died in Greece (2017)
an intentionally unvaccinated 9-year-old girl with chromosomopathy, which is not a contraindication to getting vaccinated, died in Italy (2017)
a 10-month-old unvaccinated boy who likely caught measles when he had been hospitalized for an RSV infection, died in Italy (2018)
a 16-year-old who had received a heart transplant when she was 2-years-old died in France (2018)
an unvaccinated toddler in Jerusalem (2018)



You knowingly spreading false information makes you complicit in the deaths of thousands of innocent children i wouldn't want that on my conscience
but then again not being a psychopathic parasitic narcissistic troll i actually have a conscience.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...67159/fulltext

This article states that 88 died in 2000.

Can you show me anywhere else that claims that an average of 88 have died each year in Japan since 1993?

Wouldn't you think that if 88 people were dying from measles each year in Japan since 1993, that The Lancet would mention it?

It's not as straight forward as that - I believe the Japanese government were sued several times by Parents of Children who died due to Measles over their decision to withdraw the MMR Vaccine. However, we do have the detail that the fatality rate in Japan for Measles was 1 in 10,000 - during the major outbreaks (1999-2003) there were around 100,000 -200,000 cases a year.

The point still (however much you wish to argue specifics) is that the number is far greater than the number of deaths for a 15 year period in the US, which has a far higher population.

In fact - Since you agree in 88 in one year - 129 in 15 years gives a death rate of 8.6 (so already for the 1 year you agree with the data - the death rate of Actual Measles vs the Vaccine is 10:1) - but seeing as you want to be pedantic - the US has a population size of 325 Million vs Japan's 126 Million (2.5 times higher) - so adjusting the 8.6 for population size gives us 3.44 deaths in a single year for a country using the Vaccine with a population size of Japan vs 88 deaths (that you agree is accurate) for Japan NOT using the Vaccine.

So I put it to you: If your stated goal is compassion and not wanting people to die - which number is more acceptable?

88 Dead
or
3.44 Dead.

[Katman]

from 1989 to 1991 there were at least 123 measles deaths across the United States.

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

[TheDemonLord]

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

[Katman]

So I put it to you: If your stated goal is compassion and not wanting people to die - which number is more acceptable?

Dude, people die.

I don't imagine anything I can do will ever be likely to change that.

And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

[Katman]

It's not as straight forward as that

It never is with you.

[husaberg]

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

Vaccination wouldn't have saved them, but as you tried to change the subject i will take it as an admission you cant refute the facts you are wrong in your assertions
You must find it amazinge that on a medical matter the entire medical community (aside from ahandfull of kooks) is right in saying that vaccinations save lives when you as a bike mechanic from taupo whose only medical training was a first aid course you took as a boy scout in 1972 thinks he knows better.



Measles: a dangerous illness, by Roald Dahl (written in 1986)
Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old.

As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.

That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.

On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.

It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness.

Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk.

In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.

Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. [NOTE: Since this was written in 1986, the success of the MMR vaccination has reduced this figure to several thousand each year, but unvaccinated children are still at risk, and there are still occasional deaths from measles].

Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another.

At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections.

About 20 will die. [NOTE: The number of deaths from measles has fallen to almost zero in the UK since this was written. The number of people affected by complications of measles has also fallen.]

n 1962 Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia died of measles encephalitis. Measles causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) in about one in every thousand children who get it. Encephalitis is still an extremely serious condition which is difficult to treat and almost always requires admission to an intensive care unit.

Soon after Olivia died, Roald Dahl wrote the following account in a school exercise book, which he kept hidden away at the back of a drawer in his writing shed. It describes taking his daughter into hospital after she had collapsed at home.

Awful drive. Lorries kept holding us up on narrow roads. Got to hospital. Ambulance went to wrong entrance. Backed out. Arrived. Young doctor in charge. Mervyn and he gave her 3mg sodium amatol. I sat in hall. Smoked. Felt frozen. A small single bar electric fire on wall. An old man in next room. Woman doctor went to phone. She was trying urgently to locate another doctor. He arrived. I went in. Olivia lying quietly. Still unconscious. She has an even chance, doctor said. They had tapped her spine. Not meningitis. It’s encephalitis. Mervyn left in my car. I stayed. Pat arrived and went in to see Olivia. Kissed her. Spoke to her. Still unconscious. I went in. I said, “Olivia… Olivia.” She raised her head slightly off pillow. Sister said don’t. I went out. We drank whiskey. I told doctor to consult experts. Call anyone. He called a man in Oxford. I listened. Instructions were given. Not much could be done. I first said I would stay on. Then I said I’d go back with Pat. Went. Arrived home. Called Philip Evans. He called hospital. Called me back. “Shall I come?” “Yes please.” I said I’d tell hospital he was coming. I called. Doc thought I was Evans. He said I’m afraid she’s worse. I got in the car. Got to hospital. Walked in. Two doctors advanced on me from waiting room. How is she? I’m afraid it’s too late. I went into her room. Sheet was over her. Doctor said to nurse go out. Leave him alone. I kissed her. She was warm. I went out. “She is warm.” I said to doctors in hall, “Why is she so warm?” “Of course,” he said. I left.

In the mid-1980s, over twenty years later, Roald Dahl wrote the following passage, aimed at parents who were refusing to give their children the measles vaccine. (The number of deaths from measles has fallen to almost zero in the UK since this was written. See the 'More information' section of our Measles page for up-to-date information about measles deaths in the UK.)

[Katman]

Given what we (and when I say we - I mean people who've got some modicum of clue about Biology, which rules you out) know about Immune development, that's the complete opposite to reality.

The Immune system gets developed by encountering Viruses and Bacterium at small levels and fighting them off (Y'know - the same way that Vaccines work) - when kids live in a very clean environment, where everything is wiped down with Anti-bac wipes, they use anti-bac soap, they don't have 5+ Siblings to interact with, they don't play out in the street with the other large groups of family kids, they are supervised by Parents who prevent them from eating dirt, putting their fingers into (insert preferred bacterial breeding ground here) and then putting those same fingers in their mouths - their Immune system doesn't appear to develop properly.

So No.

Perhaps you should offer your wealth of knowledge on the subject to these people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5607155/

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, people die.

And yet when I make that statement, I'm a bloodthirsty Monster...

And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Well, it's either:

1: Rabid Jealousy at how dare Big Pharma make lots of Money
2: Misguided compassion at the fact some people do have allergic reactions and die
3: You're being a Cunt

Given how your arguments thus far have been 'but sooooooo many people die' - You'll forgive someone being charitable and assuming it's option 2.

However - the real solution to this problem is - you can call me a Nazi (GODWIN!) when you have kids of your own - when you've got Skin in the game, then you can tell people to go fuck themselves.

Until then however - I do have Kids, Husa has Kids - we hold others to the same standard we hold ourselves.

If you want to have the conversation around improving administering practices to reduce or eliminate the risk of death from an allergic reaction (which they already do) - Fine.
If you want to have the conversation around government overreach and where the authority of the Parent ends and the Wellbeing of the Child starts - Also, Fine.

But, to critique the risks of a Vaccine whilst simultaneously benefitting from the protection of a 95% vaccination rate is either Stupid or Malicious. So which are you?