ESE's works engine tuner

[ceci]

I think that development of road going machines (ie motorcycles) will either die out or they will have to improve dramatically (in order to keep the environmentalists, lawmakers etc. happy) but it'll be an uphill battle and manufacturers are there to make money, not to keep us peasants happy, but they do depend on peasants to buy their road going products at the moment!!

If the future is hybrid motorcycles, two-stroke engines may have a place in it, provided they overcome their pollution problems.
But how to overcome these polluting problems, there is no intention to invest in research by manufacturers.

[WilDun]

If the future is hybrid motorcycles, two-stroke engines may have a place in it, provided they overcome their pollution problems.
But how to overcome these polluting problems, there is no intention to invest in research by manufacturers.

Yes, that's how I see it anyway, but I'm sure that others don't see it that way! - (motorcycles are definitely not a priority for vehicle manufacturers).

[Haufen]

If the future is hybrid motorcycles, two-stroke engines may have a place in it, provided they overcome their pollution problems.
But how to overcome these polluting problems, there is no intention to invest in research by manufacturers.

I assume (fear) that motorcycles will go straight to being electric only. There are electric scooters available already, and some motorcycles, too. Hybrids would be heavier for sure and also more expensive due to the double amount of technology.

And with one of the worlds leading two stroke R&D companies recently being closed (Evinrude), my view on the future of two-strokes has recently become darker.





However, the type of propulsion system the manufacturer chose does not matter if you convert your motorcycle to two-stroke afterwards, anyway.

[ceci]

I assume (fear) that motorcycles will go straight to being electric only. There are electric scooters available already, and some motorcycles, too. Hybrids would be heavier for sure and also more expensive due to the double amount of technology.

And with one of the worlds leading two stroke R&D companies recently being closed (Evinrude), my view on the future of two-strokes has recently become darker.





However, the type of propulsion system the manufacturer chose does not matter if you convert your motorcycle to two-stroke afterwards, anyway.

From the rest of the world, as the situation is, I do not know, in my country the main motorcycle manufacturer (Gas Gas) was bought by Torrot, which has its current production of electric scooters, the national manufacturer of automobiles (Seat) is also producing scooters. electrical.
The question is that the useful life of the batteries has limitations that over time lose storage capacity and this can lead to their owners turning them into hybrids when incorporating small combustion engines

[Haufen]

From the rest of the world, as the situation is, I do not know, in my country the main motorcycle manufacturer (Gas Gas) was bought by Torrot, which has its current production of electric scooters, the national manufacturer of automobiles (Seat) is also producing scooters. electrical.
The question is that the useful life of the batteries has limitations that over time lose storage capacity and this can lead to their owners turning them into hybrids when incorporating small combustion engines

When my colleague at work complained about the long charging duration and short lifetime of his bicycle battery, I told him about my revolutionary idea for the C-BIKE. Compared to a conventional electric bicycle, it comes with improved passive safety and it can be recharged in under a minute by filling in some sort of 'magic juice'. Also, power and range do not become smaller with lifetime. If you look at it from that perspective, a small two-stroke engine would solve all of his problems.


I think Torrot / GasGas was recently bought by KTM, which might save us from more of those not overwhelmigly sexy scooters :-)
https://www.cyclenews.com/2019/09/ar...m-buys-gasgas/


Its a shame really, Evinrude were the pioneers of two-stroke direct injection engines and a leader in low emission two-stroke technology. The technology used in the E-Tec snowmobiles was initially a takeover from Evinrude.

On May 27, 2020, BRP announced that they would be retiring the Evinrude brand and would exit the outboard boat motor market [4]. The modern Evinrude E-TEC motors were among the lowest emission and highest power-to-weight ratio outboards produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evinrude_Outboard_Motors

[wobbly]

Haufen , the real issue is that the Evinrude E tec system , that worked superbly cost a fortune to licence from Bombardier , who use it in all their Snow and Water Ski engines.
Its patented to hell and back - and Bombardier have the money/lawyers to nail anyone trying to copy it commercially , thus there is no available injection system that even comes close in performance
at any cost.
These two sad facts ( performance and cost ) is what is holding back all 2T development around the use of injection , especially allowing an efficient/programmable stratified charge capability.
Niels TPI in some form is a big step forward , but the needed R&D around being able to control the ECU via new some added variable , to track the highly changing pipe efficiency factor , is still in its infancy as far as I know.
The only way for 2T to make it back into mainstream production ( ie the millions of scooters in use daily ) is a simple /cost effective injection system , and or some new mechanical layout development.
NoLuc / Ryger was a giant red herring , so we need something that uses 2Ts inherrent attributes but ameliorates the emmissions downsides.

[WilDun]

Haufen , the real issue is that the Evinrude E tec system , that worked superbly cost a fortune to licence from Bombardier , who use it in all their Snow and Water Ski engines ...................
The only way for 2T to make it back into mainstream production ( ie the millions of scooters in use daily ) is a simple /cost effective injection system , and or some new mechanical layout development.
NoLuc / Ryger was a giant red herring , so we need something that uses 2Ts inherrent attributes but ameliorates the emmissions downsides.

Wobbly, very well said ! - at least you know, I just manage to offer vague suggestions (hunches!) and wait to be blasted by someone I've offended!

[WilDun]

When my colleague at work complained about the long charging duration and short lifetime of his bicycle battery, I told him about my revolutionary idea for the C-BIKE. ............... a small two-stroke engine would solve all of his problems.

Or maybe both together? - belts/chains/change gears all gone! and perhaps just enough battery to cope with regenerative braking.

[Haufen]

Haufen , the real issue is that the Evinrude E tec system , that worked superbly cost a fortune to licence from Bombardier , who use it in all their Snow and Water Ski engines.
Its patented to hell and back - and Bombardier have the money/lawyers to nail anyone trying to copy it commercially

I agree, that's sad of course. But on the other hand that's what any other company would have done, too. They're in to maximize profits, can't really blame them for that (although the profit thing seems not to have worked out in recent times as can be seen by the closure of Evinrude).

thus there is no available injection system that even comes close in performance at any cost. These two sad facts ( performance and cost ) is what is holding back all 2T development around the use of injection , especially allowing an efficient/programmable stratified charge capability.

I disagree. With automotive DI being the mainstream technology for about a decade now, and the standard being at around 250 bar nowadays, this technology should offer many advantages over the E-Tec at comparable or lower cost. After all, the E-Tec is capable of around 35 bar injection pressure. This means that at higher loads and revs, it has to start injecting when the exhaust port is still open. At low(er) loads like during certification it is very clean, but on full beam it's more or less just as dirty as any other two-stroke. With automotive DI and 250 bar you can inject much more within a given time period. And you have better homogenization before the burn due to the higher injection pressure.

The only way for 2T to make it back into mainstream production ( ie the millions of scooters in use daily ) is a simple /cost effective injection system , and or some new mechanical layout development.

I agree. To make a comeback, the two-stroke has to be (really really) clean and yet still quite simple (and hence cheap).
If one were to combine automotive DI with a rotating exhaust valve drum, that would set the benchmark in clean two-stroke technology, easily.


@all: I am thinking about opening a 'clean two-stroke thread' where we can collect and brainstorm ideas, technologies and the latest news on the market. Does anyone have a proposition in which category such a thread would be put best? There are so many brilliant and capable people on here, I am sure that once it's up and running, we might even get quite far in creating our own clean two-stroke concept. I know that's a long path, but if the option is no more two-strokes in the future, then I am all in.

[TZ350]

I am thinking about opening a 'clean two-stroke thread' where we can collect and brainstorm ideas, technologies and the latest news on the market. Does anyone have a proposition in which category such a thread would be put best?

Clean 2T and 2T revival is very interesting. My two cents worth. Continuing here is OK or adding to this thread https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...2T-EFI-Project might be interesting or a new one altogether but still within the Bucket forum where most of the inventiveness with new ideas is done.

[Flettner]

Yes a separate thread might be good. But are the best ideas going to be published? Just to get used by industry with no recognition as to where the concept came from. I was / am all for publishing everything but if its any good it will get pinched. We will all need to understand this up front, and that 'industry' will try to patent it for themselves, so we will have to keep a good eye on provisional patents. Rats run 'industry'.
You can actually provisionally patent stuff relatively easily and cheaply, but you will only have 12 months after that, full patent, or let it go. And the buggers (rats) know this.

Edit, you can get up to eighteen months protection but that will cost a little extra.

[WilDun]

I am thinking about opening a 'clean two-stroke thread' where we can collect and brainstorm ideas, technologies and the latest news on the market. Does anyone have a proposition in which category such a thread would be put best? There are so many brilliant and capable people on here, I am sure that once it's up and running, we might even get quite far in creating our own clean two-stroke concept. I know that's a long path, but if the option is no more two-strokes in the future, then I am all in.

Most of the younger guys on the forum probably won't even remember two strokes on the roads (it's that bad!) and if it's not competition oriented they won't become interested (nor will it be if we are gunning for economy and cleanliness).

Those who are interested in the engineering of it all, young or old of course, will be keen!

Everyone interested in bikes, especially four stroke need to take notice too, because four strokes will most probably go down the same path the two strokes have gone down and eventually all motorcycles will be legislated off the roads (unless they have roll cages or something else ridiculous) by the powers that be - we didn't think at first that sort of thing could possibly ever come up, but it was proposed - by a politician in America way back! - however they will still find some dumb ass safety regulation to apply to complete the job!

I think that you'll have to spend a bit of time going over all the other threads and find out just who your interested people really are - or try and get some interest started! - difficult one - do your best.

BTW we don't know if you are a Kiwi or not! - some possibly do.

[Niels Abildgaard]

I agree. To make a comeback, the two-stroke has to be (really really) clean and yet still quite simple (and hence cheap).
If one were to combine automotive DI with a rotating exhaust valve drum, that would set the benchmark in clean two-stroke technology, easily.


@all: I am thinking about opening a 'clean two-stroke thread' where we can collect and brainstorm ideas, technologies and the latest news on the market. Does anyone have a proposition in which category such a thread would be put best? There are so many brilliant and capable people on here, I am sure that once it's up and running, we might even get quite far in creating our own clean two-stroke concept. I know that's a long path, but if the option is no more two-strokes in the future, then I am all in.

Please go ahead and start a new thread with clean two strokes.The game of wringing more power out of a given amount of cubic is dying.
Two strokes can improve environmental issues on small aircraft engines.There is no catalyst demand and some of the pigs use leaded petrol.

https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/f...-angels.32119/

[lohring]

I think opposed piston two strokes have a future. They have a long history and seem to have advantages. I'm waiting for Flettner's latest impatiently.

Lohring Miller

[Flettner]

I think opposed piston two strokes have a future. They have a long history and seem to have advantages. I'm waiting for Flettner's latest impatiently.

Lohring Miller

Me too, waiting impatiently.