Beehive occupation.

[pritch]

If we regard science as anything different, then you're wrong... then again, science doesn't ignore anything as it disproves things in order to remove them from the equation, maybe you are wrong.

Seriously? We don't think that science is the same thing? ... You don't like 1 body of evidence. That you have to call it something other than science, despite the evidence presented, well, yeah, that doesn;t make your position scientific in any way shape or form. It makes you a parrot.

Ah well. Here we are. A couple of our resident fuckups had left the site so I did away with my ignore list. That was a mistake. You are back on ignore.

[TheDemonLord]

And replaced with who?
Who the fuck would have done any or much different?

At this point a piece of Granite would be better - at least a stone can't remove rights whilst smugly smiling and saying how kind it is.

[FJRider]

Exactly. You have arrived at my position.

All bitter and twisted over your perceived lack of freedoms ... Hardly.

You've just agreed with the Protestors position: "There will be no negotiation if you infringe on mine."

That can only be achieved ... if you KNOW you hold an advantage. Minority groups seldom do.

The funny bit is ... minority groups are always at the disadvantage.

Usually ... too stupid to realize that.

That, right there, is the heart of the protest: We won't go until the Mandates are removed.

Don't worry ... there are still a few jail cells not being used at the moment.

They will leave ... but not necessarily ... by their own free will.

There will be no negotiation if you infringe on mine.

Time will tell. But no negotiation means no concessions from either side.

The first rule of negotiation ... is ask for more than you want. Then concede on a few points that you didn't really want.

Commonly known as a win win situation. And better than a TOTAL loss situation.

Make a few examples and kowtow everyone else into compliance. Much more efficient.

Personally ... I'd like more than "A few" ... but that's just me.

Easier for the businesses to make money ... if they stay IN business.

It IS easier for them to make money (and pay tax) ... if they stay IN business.

Perhaps you aren't as stupid as some say you are.

Sure, and for a Fair and Just society ...

NEWS FLASH ... LIFE isn't fair.

Get over it.

When the Ink dries

I'm sorry ... you've lost me there. Explain what you mean there .. ??

You're halfway there, there's something you need to add in though.

Whatever that is ... you need to be alive and have the freedom to do it.

Difficult from a jail cell or a coffin.

Good thing I don't wear watches then...

Personal choices I guess.

But ... I bet you still have your phone.

Those sneaky bastards...

Quite.

Not that I said it, but maybe the quality of journalism would improve....

Some journalists might not agree with the policy change.

But as the current quality policy standard is at rock bottom ... some improvement would be nice.

And even when he was Hung, there was a dissenting opinion in the House of Lords. Even Scoundrels and Wretches deserve a defence something something British Liberal values something.

He was believed (and found) GUILTY before he even got to the courtroom. NO defense lawyer could have EVER hoped/expected to change that simple fact.

Witch hunts had fairer trials.

In terms of impartial reporting on facts - for a long time the BBC was considered the standard when it came to televised/radio news.

Only considered (as such) ... by the Poms.

Funny that ...

[Murray]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/1278...-freedom-means

[R650R]

And replaced with who?
Who the fuck would have done any or much different?

Anyone with clear leadership skills and perhaps some real life experience.

Under her watch we’ve had massive explosion in gang numbers....
She announced we’re going to imprison 30% less people without having a real plan in place to heal or fix the people already on that path....
Driveby shootings are just a secondary regular news headline now
There’s so much gang violence it’s now called “ disorder” to disguise how bad it is....
Our local police post on their FB page notice of no go areas (not in those words of course) when there are large gatherings for funerals or other activities....
Housing market.... total economic incompetence could you imagine the prices if covid hadn’t halted immigration for last couple years....
She said one thing and then done opposite andctried to play word games with public...
Has five press secretaries (got to cross reference and check the propoganda matches up and screen questions ahead of time)
Responsible for the biggest protest fiasco since motua gardens purely by refusing to engage in briefest dialogue at start, fail at negotiation 101.
Despite having a majority first past post style election win felt she needed to have greens as coalition partner, what does that say about faith in your own party and colleagues?

[husaberg]

Anyone with clear leadership skills and perhaps some real life experience.

Under her watch we’ve had massive explosion in gang numbers....
She announced we’re going to imprison 30% less people without having a real plan in place to heal or fix the people already on that path....
Driveby shootings are just a secondary regular news headline now
There’s so much gang violence it’s now called “ disorder” to disguise how bad it is....
Our local police post on their FB page notice of no go areas (not in those words of course) when there are large gatherings for funerals or other activities....
Housing market.... total economic incompetence could you imagine the prices if covid hadn’t halted immigration for last couple years....
She said one thing and then done opposite andctried to play word games with public...
Has five press secretaries (got to cross reference and check the propoganda matches up and screen questions ahead of time)
Responsible for the biggest protest fiasco since motua gardens purely by refusing to engage in briefest dialogue at start, fail at negotiation 101.
Despite having a majority first past post style election win felt she needed to have greens as coalition partner, what does that say about faith in your own party and colleagues?

You could just move to America and live in Florida with your beloved leader.

[pritch]

You could just move to America and live in Florida with your beloved leader.

Then he’d learn that his beloved leader despises him as he does all his followers. When Trump thought they might try and stay in his hotel in DC around the time of his coup attempt he put the prices so high they couldn’t afford it.

The people Trump wants to hang with despise him, so he’s kind of Donny no mates.

[TheDemonLord]

All bitter and twisted over your perceived lack of freedoms ... Hardly.

That can only be achieved ... if you KNOW you hold an advantage. Minority groups seldom do.

The funny bit is ... minority groups are always at the disadvantage.

Usually ... too stupid to realize that.

Don't worry ... there are still a few jail cells not being used at the moment.

They will leave ... but not necessarily ... by their own free will.

Time will tell. But no negotiation means no concessions from either side.

The first rule of negotiation ... is ask for more than you want. Then concede on a few points that you didn't really want.

Commonly known as a win win situation. And better than a TOTAL loss situation.

You may not be as upset about the Mandates as me, but you've outright stated you believe in the same principle - that your rights are not negotiable. And whilst minority groups have some disadvantages, they do have one key advantage: An appeal to underlying values. Ending of Slavery, Gay rights - all of these causes were fought for by a Minority and won on an appeal to Liberal values.

Personally ... I'd like more than "A few" ... but that's just me.

Remember when I made the comparison between Covid restrictions and the rise of fascistic thinking and everyone mocked me for it?

There it is.

It IS easier for them to make money (and pay tax) ... if they stay IN business.

Perhaps you aren't as stupid as some say you are.

Ironically, that was a quote from you I forgot to format and respond to. The response was going to be 'It's even easier if the Government leave them the hell alone'

NEWS FLASH ... LIFE isn't fair.

Get over it.

Sure, but there's a difference between the random chance of life and government mandated discrimination.

I'm sorry ... you've lost me there. Explain what you mean there .. ??

You said that Force happens the handcuffs are slapped on.
I'm saying that the Force happens when the Ink that signed the law into existence dries - that's the point at which the Government can confiscate your property, arrest you etc.

Whatever that is ... you need to be alive and have the freedom to do it.

Difficult from a jail cell or a coffin.

I'll leave you to ponder and stew on that. But Death (or the threat of Death) isn't a factor

Personal choices I guess.

But ... I bet you still have your phone.

heh, I was waiting for that.

Some journalists might not agree with the policy change.

But as the current quality policy standard is at rock bottom ... some improvement would be nice.

How about we start small, a Public Flogging?

He was believed (and found) GUILTY before he even got to the courtroom. NO defense lawyer could have EVER hoped/expected to change that simple fact.

Witch hunts had fairer trials.

To be fair, his crime(s) were fairly well... Broadcast...

Only considered (as such) ... by the Poms.

Funny that ...

The US (Both Dems and Repubs) used to say the BBC was much more neutral than anything in the US - then there's all the former colonies (Aus, India, Canada, NZ etc.)

[pritch]

Although such may not appear to be the case, the police have a playbook for this situation. Most democracies use similar. Initially they use restraint. To be heavy handed would just create matyrs, and create sympathy for the occupation.

When the time is right they can cut services and start putting the squeeze on space.

Once the occupation starts to break up, by which time the police, the politicians, and the public, are over it. Things change. From that point heads can get cracked, cars can get damaged etc. Which may come as a shock to any idiot protestor that thought they had the upper hand and that things were going to continue as they had been.

The internal security training I did related to the reading of the Riot Act. After that they could start shooting people. That'd work too.

Anyway I await the final phase with breathless anticipation.

[TheDemonLord]

Although such may not appear to be the case, the police have a playbook for this situation. Most democracies use similar. Initially they use restraint. To be heavy handed would just create matyrs, and create sympathy for the occupation.

When the time is right they can cut services and start putting the squeeze on space.

Once the occupation starts to break up, by which time the police, the politicians, and the public, are over it. Things change. From that point heads can get cracked, cars can get damaged etc. Which may come as a shock to any idiot protestor that thought they had the upper hand and that things were going to continue as they had been.

The internal security training I did related to the reading of the Riot Act. After that they could start shooting people. That'd work too.

Anyway I await the final phase with breathless anticipation.

Indeed....

[FJRider]

And whilst minority groups have some disadvantages, they do have one key advantage: An appeal to underlying values. Ending of Slavery, Gay rights - all of these causes were fought for by a Minority and won on an appeal to Liberal values.

The "Minority" that caused the downfall of slavery and the legalization of Homosexuality ... was far greater than the NZ unvaxxed mob and their supporters will ever be. Anti slavery and Gay rights groups were/are world wide ... and still breeding.

The anti-vax lot are dead in the water. Doing themselves more harm than good by their own and seemingly divided actions ... and not just in Wellington.

Remember when I made the comparison between Covid restrictions and the rise of fascistic thinking and everyone mocked me for it?

Have you not noticed .. ??? ... we're STILL mocking you.

There it is ... MY (ok .. your) very words.

Ironically, that was a quote from you I forgot to format and respond to. The response was going to be 'It's even easier if the Government leave them the hell alone'

Why I agreed with it.

Sure, but there's a difference between the random chance of life and government mandated discrimination.

Life is full of random chances ... some of those may take your life. Life as such ... isn't fair. The good people have just the same probability of dying as the bad. Mitigation of risk is a personal decision. As is ... what and where you see as the perceived risk. Mitigation of perceived risks is entirely up to the individual to decide ... even if Governmental mandates are in place.

As I've said before ... risk assessment is a personal decision. Make one ... and live with the consequences ... or not.

Motorcycling is similar ... the risk of death is always there. The most skilled motorcyclists in the world ... can still die whilst riding a motorcycle.

You said that Force happens the handcuffs are slapped on.
I'm saying that the Force happens when the Ink that signed the law into existence dries - that's the point at which the Government can confiscate your property, arrest you etc.

Nobody is forced to break the law. That's another personal choice. It's an action that "MAY" get a reaction. That reaction may WELL be force.

I'll leave you to ponder and stew on that. But Death (or the threat of Death) isn't a factor

As you may have surmised already ... I don't take a threat of death lightly. The mitigation level for such threats may vary.

heh, I was waiting for that.

Sorry to keep you waiting ...

How about we start small, a Public Flogging?

It's a start.

To be fair, his crime(s) were fairly well... Broadcast...

German Officers with more heinous crimes to their record ... suffered less punishment.

Life AND death often isn't fair.

The US (Both Dems and Repubs) used to say the BBC was much more neutral than anything in the US - then there's all the former colonies (Aus, India, Canada, NZ etc.)

I used to listen to the BBC in Asia. Usually closer to the truth than the local stations.

In Singapore ... a (NZ) forces rugby team played the Singapore National rugby team. The score was 56-nil to the Kiwi's.

The next day ... the local main newspaper described the game as a narrow loss for the Singapore team.

Journalistic bias I think.

[TheDemonLord]

The "Minority" that caused the downfall of slavery and the legalization of Homosexuality ... was far greater than the NZ unvaxxed mob and their supporters will ever be. Anti slavery and Gay rights groups were/are world wide ... and still breeding.

The anti-vax lot are dead in the water. Doing themselves more harm than good by their own and seemingly divided actions ... and not just in Wellington.

Were they? Are they? Those are some pretty bold claims... Let's see if we can find some evidence for that.

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-...sexuality.aspx

You only get a net-positive approval around the year 2000. I'm sure if such data was to exist on the issue of Slavery we would see very much the same thing. It was never the Majority opinion that swayed the matter, but the appeal to principles that did.

The Anti-Mandate lot (which will include anti-vaxxers) also are making an appeal to princples.

Have you not noticed .. ??? ... we're STILL mocking you.

There it is ... MY (ok .. your) very words.

I know... but as the evidence validates my point of view (see the increased suicide rate due to Lockdowns, the 20 point IQ drop for children born during Lockdown, Speech, language and emotional impairement due to mask wearing) - who will be mocking Whom?

Life is full of random chances ... some of those may take your life. Life as such ... isn't fair. The good people have just the same probability of dying as the bad. Mitigation of risk is a personal decision. As is ... what and where you see as the perceived risk. Mitigation of perceived risks is entirely up to the individual to decide ... even if Governmental mandates are in place.

As I've said before ... risk assessment is a personal decision. Make one ... and live with the consequences ... or not.

Motorcycling is similar ... the risk of death is always there. The most skilled motorcyclists in the world ... can still die whilst riding a motorcycle.

And this is again, a wonderfully articulated appeal to the notion of Bodily Autonomy, individual rights and responsibilities - If the Government had acted on these principles, that each individual is able to judge their level of Risk, Perhaps even with some protections for those who felt the risk was too great - I would have been fine with it.

What you've written is something every protestor would agree with. They want the freedom to manage their level of risk as they see fit.

Nobody is forced to break the law. That's another personal choice. It's an action that "MAY" get a reaction. That reaction may WELL be force.

That depends, if a Law is Immoral and demands something that violated your conscious...

As you may have surmised already ... I don't take a threat of death lightly. The mitigation level for such threats may vary.

Neither - what I wouldn't do is let someone else dictate to me what level of mitigation I must take for me and my life.

It's a start.

Deal. We'll just have to make sure we select ones that don't enjoy it. Otherwise could get awkward.

German Officers with more heinous crimes to their record ... suffered less punishment.

Life AND death often isn't fair.

They didn't seek to inspire defeat.

I used to listen to the BBC in Asia. Usually closer to the truth than the local stations.

And once again, you accidentally prove my point

Starting to become a habit of yours...

[FJRider]

Were they? Are they? Those are some pretty bold claims... Let's see if we can find some evidence for that.

Simple mathematics ... The roughly 10% of any population (that has ANY say in the matter of any covid restrictions placed on them by their Government ... Vs the world wide antislavery movement ... that changed governments ... and caused wars.

The Anti-Mandate lot (which will include anti-vaxxers) also are making an appeal to princples.

With what I've seen of the Wellington mob ... any appeal to principals seems ironic.

I know... but as the evidence validates my point of view (see the increased suicide rate due to Lockdowns, the 20 point IQ drop for children born during Lockdown, Speech, language and emotional impairement due to mask wearing) - who will be mocking Whom?

If those capable of suicide during lockdown ... they were well capable of suicide prior to it. All they needed was an excuse.

As the saying goes ... any excuse is better than none.

If the Government had acted on these principles, that each individual is able to judge their level of Risk, Perhaps even with some protections for those who felt the risk was too great - I would have been fine with it.

Judging by the rabble mob in Wellington ... they are hardly qualified to judge levels of risk. Even some on here believe "Fresh Air" will cure you of Covid.

How many of that unmasked mob CAUGHT Covid there .. ?? and you claim they are qualified to judge risk ... REALLY ... ??

What you've written is something every protestor would agree with. They want the freedom to manage their level of risk as they see fit.

The mob in Wellington had that freedom. See how well it worked out.

That depends, if a Law is Immoral and demands something that violated your conscious...

There are effective legal ways to protest. Personal choices for whatever method they use.

Neither - what I wouldn't do is let someone else dictate to me what level of mitigation I must take for me and my life.

Rash and ill thought out actions do more harm than good. and not usually in your own best interest.

Deal. We'll just have to make sure we select ones that don't enjoy it. Otherwise could get awkward.

True ... I tied this chick up one time (long story) ...

They didn't seek to inspire defeat.

Neither did the chick I mentioned ...

But To the contrary of your claim ... more and more German officers near the end ... actually DID. And they got to live.

Go figure

And once again, you accidentally prove my point

I did say ... Closer to the truth than local stations.

World wide ... not so much.

Starting to become a habit of yours...

Your perception of things is a little out. Well ... needs work.

[pritch]

That's actually quite good. These days I usually scroll past most of your stuff, your mental contortions are just not worth the trouble. Couldn't miss that one though.

[R650R]

Although such may not appear to be the case, the police have a playbook for this situation. Most democracies use similar. Initially they use restraint. To be heavy handed would just create matyrs, and create sympathy for the occupation.

When the time is right they can cut services and start putting the squeeze on space.

Once the occupation starts to break up, by which time the police, the politicians, and the public, are over it. Things change. From that point heads can get cracked, cars can get damaged etc. Which may come as a shock to any idiot protestor that thought they had the upper hand and that things were going to continue as they had been.

The internal security training I did related to the reading of the Riot Act. After that they could start shooting people. That'd work too.

Anyway I await the final phase with breathless anticipation.

Someone with gumption has to declare a riot first though and with all the behind the scenes politics that may not be so easy...
Leaders have a playbook for this situation too, it’s quite a short book called Self Respect by Manuo Fonor ISBN 345286.4 It starts and ends on page one with Listen learn and respond....

In the end I think covid will be accepted as part of daily life and be so widespread soon that the mandates will be redundant very shortly. Either the govt will capitulate or private business will reach tipping point of not being the enforcers.
Just look at latest deaths to case number ratio, there’s no way any restrictions would be brought in if omicron was the first virus....
Jacinda has a very narrow window of opportunity to come to compromise however little and the protest will flame itself out. But carry on like a dictator just risks a tianimen square moment which would be her awful legacy and she knows it.
It doesn’t matter if protestors right or wrong a little chat would end all this... Christ even nutters with guns in a siege get the decency of some kind of negotiation....