Fighting dirty

[Wolf]

Those same set moves will most likely get you hurt on the street..

I think you may misunderstand the "set moves" of a kata.

The kata is not a sequence you learn to deal with a predicted or set sequence of attacks (like, say, "the ol' one-two-three"). A kata is what you apply to one attack only - your assailant's first (and final) attack. And you apply all those set moves to that person, irrespective of what he thinks he might want to do, in a matter of a couple of seconds.

An example might be your block shatters the wrist, you trap the arm, break a rib with your elbow while he can't move and, as you turn away, kick him hard in his exposed kidney while he's heading for the floor - that sort of shit. You do it fast - break that rib before he even realises his arm is trapped etc.

In Aikido we drilled one sequence to deflect the incoming fist, trap the arm, shift the person off balance and guide him/her face-first into the floor then drop to our knees (still with the arm trapped in an elbow lock) - one knee landing on the head the other on the ribs (don't want to hurt your knees on the concrete, do you?) tuck the arm across our chest and then roll our torsos to screw the shoulder out of its socket.

As I said before: don't "fight" - take down or take out.

A properly trained martial artist (I'm not, BTW, I've not been graded above white) in a serious threat situation should react to the first assault in such a way as to ensure there is not a second.

The lengthy fight sequences in a Martial Arts movie are staged and choreographed to be showy and they're not hitting full force. In a real hostile situation, there would be a flurry of activity and the attacker would be in serious trouble, having been hit very hard several times in vulnerable places.

And MaxB is quite right - it would look very dirty to an outsider because it's designed to take a person out of the fight as quickly and decisively as possible. No Queensbury Rules, no "forbidden targets". If the manouevre targets groin, throat, eyes and breaks an arm and a leg on the way through, tough shit.

The wanker won't be trying to hit you any time soon, and that's all that matters.

[Mikkel]

When it comes to fighting nothing beats experience. You can practice as much as you want - if you freeze in fear when the other guy pulls a knife/gun/broken bottle on you then it doesn't matter if you got the ultra blackbelt of mad NINJA skillz. And yes, fighting in a controlled environment such as a dojo sparring or a competition is quite a different situation than having to do or die.

Indeed - the best way to resolve a conflict is to end it before it even gets going. It's rare that people will attack "uprovoked" (what constitute a provocation is a fairly loose term though). My advice would be to leave your ego at home - just apologize and GTFO and find a more friendly place.

I haven't had many occassions where anyone has tried to get any action going with me. If I had I'd just try and get away ASAP. And that's despite me being a decent sized bloke (96 kgs) and having 7 years of martial arts experience (Taekwon-do, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido - and despite what some people say martial arts will at least give you fitness and the ability to read peoples moves). Mainly because you've got nothing to win and everything to loose in a fight.

If I'd get cornered I'd go for punches to the throat and kicks to the side of their knees. If getting into conflict with several opponents, try to move around to keep them on a line so they can't get to you at the same time - and run to split up the group. Fighting 1 on 1 is much much easier than 2 or 3 on 1.

Oh, go to private parties... the piss is cheaper, the music better and you don't have to put up with fuckwits.

[oldrider]

Some interesting observations on this thread but the best defense is to try and avoid the situation where you have to fight at all let alone having to get down and dirty to survive.

Personally, I have been in many literally life and death situations when I was a youngster.

Mostly through my own stupidity and in places I should have avoided (while at sea with merchant navy) especially when pissed etc.

One night in our early married years and while drinking with my friends, the subject got round to the way dangers to women were increasing!

I decided (as you do, when you are pissed) to go home and school Mrs O/r up on self defence.

Got home and she says, your pissed!

I say, you need to learn self defense!

She says, why!

I say, try to hit me. (suffice to say, for the story, I was a little more than competent boxer as a youth)

She says, you are pissed.

I say, it's a dangerous world for women these days, you need to learn to defend yourself.

I shape up and insist that she should try to hit me.

She smacks me in the gob, gives me a fat lip, makes my nose bleed and my eyes water like Niagara falls!

I say, fuck you.

She says, you are pissed.

I say, see you later and go back to my mates, to continue drinking.

They say, what happened to you?

I say, any cunt that fucks round with her deserves all they get!

We all say, cheers and continue to get pissed.

Drinking is difficult, not such fun with a bloody great fat lip.

It's a dangerous world for women all right, they just don't know how much we worry about their welfare.

They need to learn to fight dirty! Cheers John.

[Wolf]

Oh, go to private parties... the piss is cheaper, the music better and you don't have to put up with fuckwits.

Not necessarily. Party chez the neighbour of a friend, we were all over there. Friend had been bonking the neighbour and the neighbour's ex boyfriend turned up to the party, got utterly pissed and then proceeded to punch the shit out of my friend as we both walked through the door into a room. I was directly behind my friend so I wound up slammed into the wall beside the door as my friend reeled backwards under the attack. I grabbed my friend's shoulder and dragged him sideways towards the door so he was able to escape the room (OK, he was more like punched back through the door) and then the drunken ex was hammering my face.

I was taken off guard and rather drunk so I just dropped and slid down the wall, figuring the guy was a) not really after me anyway and b) likely to be appeased if his punches seemed to be working. Didn't think there was much chance of him putting the boot in but I was ready to take a stab at further evasive action if he did. Turned out I was right and, robbed of a target, he buggered off looking to do more damage to my friend.

I raced out of the room, out the back door and ran over next door to my friend's house as there were other guys partying there (the party had grown and encompassed both houses and people had been drifting back and forward all night.)
Raced into my friend's house, said "quick, some bugger's gone berserk and is smashing people up next door"

That had the effect of instant action. All the blokes leapt to their feet and raced out of the house - then buggered off to safety up the road.

I ran back to the nieghbour's house but found the fight had stopped - some numbnuts had held the neighbour's baby up as a shield in front of said drunken aggressor to a) (hopefully) get him to calm down and b) prevent him from punching the cowardly shit who used the baby as a shield.

Drunken bloke wandered off and everyone (who wasn't running up the street in search of a safe place) was rather scathing of the coward who'd placed a baby in front of the fists of a drunken aggressor.

Sadly, nobody beat the crap out of the coward.

That said. That's the only private party I've been to where someone got nasty - and I've been to a few.

But I guess we could add "holding up a human baby as a shield" to the list of dirty "fighting" tactics...

[marty]

The adage "All's fair in love and war" springs to mind.

unfortunately it's not, as kiwis insist on bringing hammers, golf clubs, and their steel toe cap boots to a gunfight, and the consequense for them is usually death.

if them and their families then took responsibility for their own actions, there'd be nothing for the media to bleat on about

[Deano]

The worst thing I've seen was in Wanganui after a kickboxing fight night.

While heading into town two guys were fighting outside a pub - one KO'd the other with a punch - he was sprawled on the ground totally out to it. The assailant then decided he would continue to kick the poor bastard in the head while he was down.

Now that's just sick. Then we saw basically the same thing repeated a further 50 metres down the road. We turned round and went back to our motel having seen more than enough.

[Harry33]

The worst thing I've seen was in Wanganui after a kickboxing fight night.

While heading into town two guys were fighting outside a pub - one KO'd the other with a punch - he was sprawled on the ground totally out to it. The assailant then decided he would continue to kick the poor bastard in the head while he was down.

Now that's just sick. Then we saw basically the same thing repeated a further 50 metres down the road. We turned round and went back to our motel having seen more than enough.

Thats the sort of thing that worries me. Fighting isn't a knock out..fight over anymore. I sometime wonder (since I haven't been in a fight for a while) what I would I do if someone tried to have a go. Don't get me wrong I think I would try my best to walk away maybe even run if I had to. ( I can handle being called a chicken) But I also think that if I had no choice and I got the upper hand would I be the one kicking the shit out of someone who started something for know reason.
I know that I wouldn't probably be the only person on here that when pushed would show someone that I have some real anger issues. It's a switch thats not that easy to turn off when flicked. Anyway I don't want to sound like I'm talking myself up. If you want to fight play ice hockey haha it seems to be a done thing in Canada.
I'd rather be a lover than a fighter anyway. If you get the girls name wrong maybe you get both

[Teflon]

As for the statement that most martial arts are useless on the street. Mate, that’s a hell of a generalisation. If you saw people taking a beating on the street then I would suggest that they were not true martial artists. Especially if they started it. It is about defence not offence..

It's a fact mate..

[Teflon]

I think you may misunderstand the "set moves" of a kata.

The kata is not a sequence you learn to deal with a predicted or set sequence of attacks (like, say, "the ol' one-two-three"). A kata is what you apply to one attack only - your assailant's first (and final) attack. And you apply all those set moves to that person, irrespective of what he thinks he might want to do, in a matter of a couple of seconds.

An example might be your block shatters the wrist, you trap the arm, break a rib with your elbow while he can't move and, as you turn away, kick him hard in his exposed kidney while he's heading for the floor - that sort of shit. You do it fast - break that rib before he even realises his arm is trapped etc.

In Aikido we drilled one sequence to deflect the incoming fist, trap the arm, shift the person off balance and guide him/her face-first into the floor then drop to our knees (still with the arm trapped in an elbow lock) - one knee landing on the head the other on the ribs (don't want to hurt your knees on the concrete, do you?) tuck the arm across our chest and then roll our torsos to screw the shoulder out of its socket.

As I said before: don't "fight" - take down or take out.

A properly trained martial artist (I'm not, BTW, I've not been graded above white) in a serious threat situation should react to the first assault in such a way as to ensure there is not a second.

The lengthy fight sequences in a Martial Arts movie are staged and choreographed to be showy and they're not hitting full force. In a real hostile situation, there would be a flurry of activity and the attacker would be in serious trouble, having been hit very hard several times in vulnerable places.

And MaxB is quite right - it would look very dirty to an outsider because it's designed to take a person out of the fight as quickly and decisively as possible. No Queensbury Rules, no "forbidden targets". If the manouevre targets groin, throat, eyes and breaks an arm and a leg on the way through, tough shit.

The wanker won't be trying to hit you any time soon, and that's all that matters.

I think you watch to many movies.. Sure you can "train" to shatter wrists with a block ( LOL), or break ribs, legs, etc.. have you pulled these moves off in a real fight?? - in actual fact, i can see one you dum arses try a triangle chock while getting ya head kicked in.. or trying to land a spinnig heel kick, or back kick...

Just like training with knifes, unless you are training for real, it's worthless.

No disrespect to Martial Artists. My father is 5th dan blackbelt in Tai Kwon Do, switched to boxing, then muay tai and kickboxing; and Jujitsu.

Martial Arts is a false sense of security.

[Wolf]

in actual fact, i can see one you dum arses try a triangle chock while getting ya head kicked in.. or trying to land a spinnig heel kick, or back kick...

Actually, this particular "dum [sic] arse" wouldn't try any of those things.

[MaxB]

It's a fact mate..

I can believe it is a fact that you have seen so called MA guys getting beaten up on the street but I think you miss the point. You say that most martial arts are no good on the street. The point is that they are defensive techniques designed to get you off the street, not getting stuck into street brawls. I took what you said and had a quick poll of incidents and attacks on club members. Not one higher grade had been overpowered or assaulted in over 10 years and that includes assault with a dealy weapon and attempted rape. Thats over 100 incidents and not one serious injury.

I'm not sure about other martial arts but if anyone is caught fighting off the dojo I know of they are suspended. If they started the fight the are banned for life. Hell, they even have a ceremony for it. Ritual humiliation in front of 200 people.

As for pain, you are kidding right? I've seen competitors fight on with broken feet, broken wrists, dislocated shoulders etc. It especially bad in the teams events because to admit pain or show the wrong emotion brings shame to your team.

The trouble with the scene in NZ is that there are few enforcable national standards. Any f--kwit can buy a gym and call themselves 'sensei bozo' and start training. You end up with heaps of badly trained so called martial artists who are a danger to themsevles and anyone they start fights with. Like everything else you tend to get what you pay for.

That will do for now. I just got back from work.

Rant mode off.

[Wolf]

Forget it, Max, Teflon's the world expert on everything - including what we'd do while someone's kicking our heads in - and wants to turn a thread about dirty fighting tactics into a slag-off-martial arts thread.

Back on dirty tactics - at terrible risk of actually posting on topic, Teflon - my dad told me how when he was a lad he'd carry a leather cosh inside his belt band. Being slim and flexible with the lead shot evenly distributed, it was pretty-near undetectable and the loop was positioned so he could hook it with his right thumb - if he squared off against someone he'd do the macho "thumbs tucked in belt" stance and they wouldn't realise he'd just put his thumb through the loop. That way, if it turned into aggression he could whip the cosh out of its hiding place and swing it at their face, which would cause all the shot to bunch at the end of the cosh just before it hit.

I always thought that was a rather dirty tactic - sucker-punching someone with a concealed illegal weapon.

He never mentioned if it was ever found by the cops and what the consequences were if it was.

One of my workmates told me that when he was a lad in London some youths stitched razor blades into the peaks of their caps so they could whip the hat off and flick it across their opponents' faces.

Then there's the famed "Liverpool Kiss" where you grab your opponent's coat whip it open and down until it's halfway down his arms then close it, trapping his arms to his sides. Then you raise a knee and lower your forehead as you yank him sharply towards you. Done right, you should get the knee in his groin and your forehead on the bridge of his nose while he can't punch back.

[Flatcap]

Back on dirty tactics - at terrible risk of actually posting on topic, Teflon - my dad told me how when he was a lad he'd carry a leather cosh inside his belt band. Being slim and flexible with the lead shot evenly distributed, it was pretty-near undetectable and the loop was positioned so he could hook it with his right thumb - if he squared off against someone he'd do the macho "thumbs tucked in belt" stance and they wouldn't realise he'd just put his thumb through the loop. That way, if it turned into aggression he could whip the cosh out of its hiding place and swing it at their face, which would cause all the shot to bunch at the end of the cosh just before it hit.

Where would one purchase one of these contraptions?

Could come in useful for those persistent "trick-or-treaters'

[MisterD]

One of my workmates told me that when he was a lad in London some youths stitched razor blades into the peaks of their caps so they could whip the hat off and flick it across their opponents' faces.

I've heard of that amongst some of the more extreme football hooligans of the late 70s / early 80s... apparently there's also a way of sliding one into the spine of a magazine that makes a good concealed carry.

On the martial arts thing though, I'm very well persuaded that boxers above martial artists were the preferred "minders" in gangland London (and no, not from watching Arfur Daley )

[Lias]

No such thing as a dirty move imho. If you want to pick a fight with me I'm not going to fuck around having fisticuffs under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. I'll quite happily go for the knees, groin, throat etc. I'll gouge your eyes, I'll bite your ear, stick my fingers up your nose and rip it off, whatever opportunity presents itself. If there is a weapon to hand and I judge it avantageous to use it I'll happily scone you with a bottle, pipe, or whatever. Whatever it takes to cripple, maim, or disable you and get you out of contention.