Attacking Transit on another front:

[sunhuntin]

Even spent any time with amulance officers? Ask them about sunny sunday afternoons, and how many riders end up being killed out on rides in the country (in single vehicle situations) This happens all over the world... Bloody depressing.

Cage drivers, bikers, who gives a toss what label you stick on them - they all have families, friends, loved ones. Still a tragedy when they die needlessly. I reject the argument that 400 odd deaths a year is acceptable, and statistically insignificant. Those of you who like me have lost relatives / friends for no reason other than they were using the road network for personal mobility will possibly agree. If however you`re so much better in terms of skills, morals, intelligence than the rest of us that you can dismiss this carnage as natrual selection, as dumb people killing themselves, as hopeless cage drivers getting what they deserve, then you probably couldn`t care less until something threatens your safety, ability to enjoy yourself.

why bother.....

i disagree with you, again, on the points ive bolded and underlined. the cheesecutter protest was a result of a NEEDLESS death of a 21 year old who did not deserve to die. danial died because the cheesecutter was there. in the other thread, you attempted to brush his death under the rug like he didnt exist or matter.
i know his family are still hurting, and they will hurt the rest of their days. the same goes for his friends, both in real life and online.

and yes, ive spent time with ambo drivers... most recently 2005 after being hit by a car that ran a stop sign. they tried to give me that gas stuff. i told em to rack off. they had a fight just getting me in the damn thing, never mind giving me drugs and shit once there.
and dont even get me started on the quack who xrayed my leg, cast over an open undressed wound and then decided a week later the xray lens had a dusty lens. fucker. ever tried to pull a bit of bandage from a wound that has started to grow over it?? in the mean time, that leg is nothing but scar tissue, and the slightest brush brings tears to my eyes, and both knees are stuffed to the point long periods kneeling leave me shaky on my feet afterwards. [after struggling to get up in the first place...] and forget riding a sports bike.

im liking your analogy of transit vs doctors... i dont trust either of em for any damn thing.

btw you cant cry foul for being shat on... you knew what you were getting into.

[yungatart]

... Given that motorcyclists kill more motorcyclists (by inattention, inappropriate speed, plain stupidity) than car drivers or the environment maybe our attitudes need looking at.


why bother.....

You (the impersonal you) can not legislate against human nature.

However, when something is installed as a 'safety' feature to protect road users, then surely all those road users can have a realistic expectation that said safety feature will in fact add to their safety, rather than kill them in the event of an accident.

I note that transit states that one of their aims is to make the road side environment safer. How then do they justify the increasing use of cheesecutters on our roads? Surely the two things are mutually exclusive?

[sunhuntin]

especially their use on the left hand side.

[ManDownUnder]

I`m new to this forum but I am a roading engineer (currently with Transit) but most of my time with consultants and contractors and I find it difficult to believe that the installation of Chevron signs at a corner to provide deliniation is actually making the road more dangerous? And that your response to this is to ask the minister of transport to look into the matter - bit of an over reaction don`t you think?

I think the isue is a genuine one and have expereinced it myself (a few corners on 16 come to mind). Happy to show them to you if we're in the same part of the country.

Couple of things could be causing the issue 1. Diamond grade retroreflective material used instead of Engineering Grade, 2. signs not installed with the correct tilt (signs are not meant to be perpendicular to teh approaching vehicle, but instead aligned so as to reflect a good proportion of light to the side of the road, avoiding glare) or 3. your headlights are incorrectly adjusted and not aiming far enough left.

all of those things are easily checked and rectified, rather than calling for their removal which WOULD actually be unsafe. Believe it or not but peoples ability to percieve carriageway features at night degrades with age, and these signs are generally put up either in response to accidents, or at out of context curves.

I believe the request was for the problem to be fixed - as opposed to removal of the signs. I agree entirely removing them would not a sensible solution.

Again - I would urge you to take a look at the situation first hand as it sounds like you'll be able to diagnose what the issue is. From the original posting it sounds like the wrong grade reflective material was used...

Call your local Transit office, and let them know where the signs are located, and what the problem was - some one will head out at night and check their installation. We have safety engineers for this reason and despite the overall tone of this forum we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all, quite a few of us ride or race and do what we can to make the roads safer.

Cheers

[swbarnett]

You know, i envy my friends who decided to go into medicine rather than engineering. Trying to save peoples lives as a doctor doenst normally earn them resentment,

I can understand the way you feel, I wouldn't want the job. However, doctors aren't in the habit of trying to enforce a dose of over protection on us. If they did they'd get the same flack.

and most people don`t tell them how to do their jobs.

We're not trying to tell you how to do your job. We're just telling you how we feel about the job that has been done and, from our point of view, that it seems that there is a problem that's not being taken seriously.

Maybe we should just give up as a profession, and then see how many people get wiped out on the roads.

Your profession is just like the Police. I'd rather it weren't necessary but I think we all have to admit that a complete lack of it would not be good either. The happy medium would be somewhere in the middle - by all means try to fix the roads but at the same time be careful to consider all angles and proceed with caution. To ignore one sector of society is prejudice. As motorcyclists we are a minority that has the same rights and obligations as everyone else. We don't want the road made worse for us just because our voice is not loud enough.

(but thats right we dont care as most of them are 'cage' drivers so unworthy of sharing our roads).

Noone has said that cagers don't matter. I have said that a healthy measure of cause and effect is required along with education. This applies equally to everybody no matter what they drive.

Not that that will affect the super riders on here ( how many of you have had a crash in your riding career??) who are above the laws of physics and more mundane ones such as traffic regs. Isnt it amazing how motorcyclists and boy-racers/performance car enthuiasts use the same arguments to justify their over representation in crashes? Given that motorcyclists kill more motorcyclists (by inattention, inappropriate speed, plain stupidity) than car drivers or the environment maybe our attitudes need looking at.

Nobody's ever said that they're above the laws of physics. We just complain when the logic used to justify any given statute is so obviously flawed.

Even spent any time with amulance officers?

No, I haven't and I never will even if I get the chance. They only see one side of the story. The only fact that is not in dispute is that humans are fallible. No amount of wishful thinking is going to reduce our road toll below it's natural minimum.

I`m not some fascist safety nazi, just someone in the industry, sick of having to explain to co-workers and auditors why we (as bikers) seem to engage in near suicidal behaviour on such a regular basis, and why we shouldnt be legislated out of existence to protect ourselves...

The answer is simple really. We're human. As a group we have the same extremes as any other sector of society; both safety zealots and adrenalin junkies.

Personal freedom is fine, (at least in that regard, when the red mist comes down we typically only kill ourselves unlike the child racers who wipe our a car load of their mates), but we arent helping ourselves.

No argument there. Some among us do seem to think that personal responsibility does not go hand in hand with personal freedom. The problem is that the more we harp on about society's extremes the more freedom we lose until, eventually, we don't have any at all.

Cage drivers, bikers, who gives a toss what label you stick on them - they all have families, friends, loved ones. Still a tragedy when they die needlessly. I reject the argument that 400 odd deaths a year is acceptable, and statistically insignificant.

This is where we trip over ourselves. If we get too emotional about the death of a stranger we lose our objectivity and fall into the myth of "no deaths from anything other than old age". Death is a part of life.

If however you`re so much better in terms of skills, morals, intelligence than the rest of us that you can dismiss this carnage as natrual selection, as dumb people killing themselves, as hopeless cage drivers getting what they deserve, then you probably couldn`t care less until something threatens your safety, ability to enjoy yourself.

All I ask is that we (the entire population) are given the opportunity to suffer the consequences of our decisions. If we wrap up in too much cotton wool we diminish the human condition.

I (and others in the industry) think that motorcycling needs to be encouraged as a sustainable alternative to car use (notwithstanding the recreational reasons), as bikers you know the reasons why...

And the more bikers we have in the industry the better.

Slag me off all you want,

I'm sorry if it feels like we're slagging you off. Don't take it too personally. To some degree you're like the bank teller that gets yelled at because the bank stuffed up.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm sorry if it feels like we're slagging you off. Don't take it too personally. To some degree you're like the bank teller that gets yelled at because the bank stuffed up.

Anyone from Transit (or anyone fullstop) who comes on here defending the use of those road-mounted guillotines, telling us that the lives saved are worth the price of motorcyclists' deaths, must be incredibly thick, not to mention, sensitive, to feel aggrieved if they cop some flak.
If Nikolai_v is so upset, perhaps he can convince his paymasters that it might be a good idea to get rid of/replace cheesecutters so that motorcyclists will leave poor Transit alone??? Until the next bit of anti-motorcyclist bullshit becomes an issue.

[swbarnett]

Anyone from Transit (or anyone fullstop) who comes on here defending the use of those road-mounted guillotines, telling us that the lives saved are worth the price of motorcyclists' deaths, must be incredibly thick, not to mention, sensitive, to feel aggrieved if they cop some flak.
If Nikolai_v is so upset, perhaps he can convince his paymasters that it might be a good idea to get rid of/replace cheesecutters so that motorcyclists will leave poor Transit alone??? Until the next bit of anti-motorcyclist bullshit becomes an issue.

Agreed. On further reflection he is more than just a customer representative.

[Nikolai_V]

Heres a quote for you, from the industry standard manual of Traffic Engineering. I realise i`m wasting my breath here but I dislike being insulted.

"Ideally barriers should have all surfaces (sides,tops and under barrier areas) as smooth as possible. Concerns that wire rope barriers will act like a cheese cutter on a motorcyclist have failed to materialise: there is no evidence at all, worldwide of this occuiring, despite approved wire rope barrier systems being used for at least two decades. As with other barriers, the posts present the greater potential for injury"

Now i`m not making this up. i think as intelligent responsible adults we are all capable of distinguishing between a real and a percieved risk. The horrible death of one young motorcyclist has coloured the issue to the point where the facts are simply ignored. What is a real fact is this, despite the potential for harm, it`s not occurring... from the way this debate is being conducted, you would imagine that hundreds of us are being sliced to bits, hobbling around like vietnam war veterans. Can`t say I`ve seen it, and the statistics on CAS (the LTNZ accident reporting database) definitley arent showing it. (oh, and by the way anticipating dismissal of the effeciveness of acident reporting - the services generally attend decapitation/amputation accidents...)

Given the responses already on this forum, i`m inclined to think that there will be a heap of responses along the lines of "government does`nt care , second class citizens, distorted statistics, government conspiracy etc". However, that doesnt actually change what has been observed to date, both in New Zealand, and around the world. People are not being sliced to bits as a result of WRB`s. They are being saved however, the fact that the people being saved are not motorcyclists relegates that fact to a non-event for people around here.

Interestingly enough, research quoted by FEMA, teh federation of european motorcyclist, recomended that the H or I section posts be replaced with C or Z (channel or sigma) shaped posts, as an effictive means of reducing injuries.

A strong thread running through this debate is apparent dimay that despite the advantages of concrete it is not used everywhere due to the cost. To these people I say wake up and smell the roses. Its simple really. Limited amount of funding, unlimited (effectively) safety shortcomings on our network. If we didnt spend the money in an efficent way the same people would be calling for our heads...

I`m not going to comment on road funding - thats a political issue.

Again, i ride on roads where wrb has been installed, i`m willing to take my chances with them, should I lowside into one. Especially as the posts have been redesigned in response to concerns re their shortcomings.

Easiest way to deal with problem (in my own opinion) is to leave things as they are... despite the huge negative publicity they arent killing / shredding people at the moment, no reason to believe that they will in the future = a non event. I`ll just get on with my job, realigning state highways and getting passing lanes built, ride my bike and wait and see.

MSTRS - abuse me all you want, I simply have a different perspective (which i think is still allowed, the government havent made it illegal yet). I`ve seen the numbers, spoken to the engineers from overseas (even ridden their roads wrb and all), and i`m happy with things. lowsiding into the posts of a barrier system isnt high on my list of things to do, thats true, but neither is getting cleaned up in a head on, or sliding into trees/ powerpoles etc.

[Hitcher]

I sense emotions are getting a little strained here. Could people please endeavour to debate/discuss the issues, rather than to attack the people presenting these.

Many thanks

[Ixion]

i`m willing to take my chances with them, should I lowside into one. Especially as the posts have been redesigned in response to concerns re their shortcomings.

Elaborate, please. When, in what way.

[Delphinus]

Heres a quote for you, from the industry standard manual of Traffic Engineering. I realise i`m wasting my breath here but I dislike being insulted.

"Ideally barriers should have all surfaces (sides,tops and under barrier areas) as smooth as possible. Concerns that wire rope barriers will act like a cheese cutter on a motorcyclist have failed to materialise: there is no evidence at all, worldwide of this occuiring, despite approved wire rope barrier systems being used for at least two decades. As with other barriers, the posts present the greater potential for injury"

What is your thoughts on the statements outlined on the cheescutter website please?

I`ll just get on with my job, realigning state highways

I hope you mean adding more corners!

[MSTRS:Me]

i think as intelligent responsible adults we are all capable of distinguishing between a real and a percieved risk. The horrible death of one young motorcyclist has coloured the issue to the point where the facts are simply ignored. What is a real fact is this, despite the potential for harm, it`s not occurring... from the way this debate is being conducted, you would imagine that hundreds of us are being sliced to bits, hobbling around like vietnam war veterans.... People are not being sliced to bits as a result of WRB`s. They are being saved however, the fact that the people being saved are not motorcyclists relegates that fact to a non-event for people around here.

Interestingly enough, research quoted by FEMA, teh federation of european motorcyclist, recomended that the H or I section posts be replaced with C or Z (channel or sigma) shaped posts, as an effictive means of reducing injuries.

The risk is real. It takes a vulnerable sector of the motoring public to perceive that risk, and an example of one of us hitting a cheesecutter to demonstrate the reality of that perception. Daniel was apparently not the first to die (in NZ), and he won't be the last. If hundreds of us are not being mutilated, it is because hundreds of us are not hitting the damned things. Give it some more time.
Since you have obviously taken the time to find out FEMA's apparent recommendation, perhaps you can find the time to find out why substantial lengths of this shit are installed using H or I posts right here in NZ.

A strong thread running through this debate is apparent dismay that despite the advantages of concrete it is not used everywhere due to the cost. To these people I say wake up and smell the roses. Its simple really. Limited amount of funding, unlimited (effectively) safety shortcomings on our network. If we didnt spend the money in an efficent way the same people would be calling for our heads...

It is simple...don't waste limited resources installing this stuff where it is totally un-necessary, then there will be more $ available to use for biker-friendly barriers in areas of greatest need.

MSTRS - abuse me all you want,

If you feel that I 'abused' you, apologies. Tis hard to counter cold logic without responding with some emotion over the alternative realities that this issue presents.

[twotyred]

despite the overall tone of this forum we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all

Oh,just some of them then, not all...?

[swbarnett]

A strong thread running through this debate is apparent dimay that despite the advantages of concrete it is not used everywhere due to the cost.

It has become even clearer to me now that Transit understands full well that concrete is preferable but is installing WRBs because of the initial cost and cares nothing for the long term maintenance costs or the potential hazards. This, although unacceptable, is understandable and symptomatic of a wider problem. I know of no funding regime that rewards long term planning.

Yes, the risk of hitting WRBs is low. The consequences are extremely high.

Rate of occurrence multiplied by the impact of the event equals risk

Therefore low risk of occurrence combined with sufficiently high impact of the event results in unacceptable risk.

What really gets our backs up is that we are being singled out and told we don't matter in the wider scheme of things. If race were involved instead of mode of transport I believe this would actually be illegal.

[Usarka]

Yes, the risk of hitting WRBs is low.

Not when they're placed on the outside of corners.