The Bum Steer

[MSTRS:Me]

Bum Steering/Counter Steering?

Start on feet stearing John, that'll really confuse the issue....

Stirrer. Love your work.

[kiwifruit]

Oh no, not again!

I think i'll start a new thread

[James Deuce]

OK KB just descended into the realms of fairyland and abuse. Gee how original.

[MSTRS:Me]

Bloody hell, when will people actually start reading ....Point was just that: saying that countersteering is the ONLY way to turn a bike is obviously not correct since people here have already shared how they can make the bike turn by weight transfer.

They are still countersteering...people need to learn to read

[onearmedbandit]

whats countersteering?

Don't worry mate, you don't do it.

[kiwifruit]

Don't worry mate, you don't do it.

thats a relief, sounds bloody dangerous

[pritch]

Having read most of the posts in this thread I haven't seen anyone mention weighting the pegs, which method can apparently be used to steer a bike at racing speeds. (I have no intimate knowledge of this but am quoting Shaun from his DVD IoM lap.)

Or should we start a new thread about that?

There are several ways of changing the direction in which a bike is travelling and no one is right 100% of the time. There is a time and place for any and all, so what's to argue about?

[Kickaha]

Point was just that: saying that countersteering is the ONLY way to turn a bike is obviously not correct since people here have already shared how they can make the bike turn by weight transfer.

I have played around with weight transfer to make a bike turn when this argument came up long enough ago that you would have still been shitting in your nappies,and the direction changes that could be initiated wouldn't get you around any 1/2 way decent corner

[Kickaha]

Having read most of the posts in this thread I haven't seen anyone mention weighting the pegs, which method can apparently be used to steer a bike at racing speeds.

I'd never thought to much about this until I did a race with a fractured ankle and was considerably slower as I wasn't able to weight the pegs up to help the direction change

[007XX]

Counter steering can be looked upon as a term meaning steering counter to direction of required turn...in other words to go left you turn the bars slightly to the right, and counter to expectation that makes the bike lean to the left and it will turn to the left. Vikivirki for turning right. Of course, one must be travelling at or above approx 20kph for this to work...at low speed a turn of the bars will see you going in that direction.
It sounds confusing, no?

No, not confusing as this explanation was very well worded. However, a lot of earlier explanations were veering on the borderline nuclear physicist theory paper....sorry buys, just my point of view!

I wonder haw much of the trouble sometimes reported by beginers with slow speed turns is within that transitional stage, between "steer where you want to go" and "countersteer speeds".

Don't really notice the transition myself, must have a play to find out where it is on the Buell and see it it feels dodgy...

I got to admit I really still struggle with a slow tight U turn...can't seem to get the hang of it. However, countersteering on a track day at speed is no longer an issue.

Where could I be going wrong?

[Maha]

Bum Steering/Counter Steering?

Start on feet stearing John, that'll really confuse the issue....

Having read most of the posts in this thread I haven't seen anyone mention weighting the pegs

Thought it would come up sooner or later....

[MSTRS:Me]

It is very simple...riding a bike efficiently is a whole body experience.
Shift of shoulder angle, bum and/or body to one side, weighting pegs, pushing with a knee on the tank, nudging of bars....
The more of these that you combine, the better the result will be.
It is all countersteering to some extent. Obviously the most noticeable technique is the push/pull on the bars, so that is what most do or are taught to do. The other components singly or together do not create enough turn force to be effective in the tight stuff, but will be a thing of beauty in long flowing corners that do not require sharp transitions. For that, you need the bars...

Having read most of the posts in this thread I haven't seen anyone mention weighting the pegs, which method can apparently be used to steer a bike at racing speeds. (I have no intimate knowledge of this but am quoting Shaun from his DVD IoM lap.)

Or should we start a new thread about that?

There are several ways of changing the direction in which a bike is travelling and no one is right 100% of the time. There is a time and place for any and all, so what's to argue about?

A-a ahem.....

[Bass]

You simply don't get it...

If you build a bike with counter-rotating weights and it performs like a normal bike then you've built it wrong. Period.

If you had tried riding one I'm sure you would agree!

I agreed that the trail is crucial for stability - OF THE STEERING GEOMETRY. If you don't have a trail then the wheel can turn too easily and you get into big trouble. However, the reason that you can not sit on your bike with your legs up without falling over if you're not moving is that there are no stabilisation from the gyroscopic forces.

It's taken me a while to get back to this but since I opened the batting on this topic, I guess I should respond.
Sorry mate but while I see your point, I don't agree.
Firstly, it is possible to ride a bike at speeds which are so low that the gyroscopic forces are so small as to be ineffectual and we have all done it.
Secondly, countersteering can be explained by considering the gyroscopic forces on the front wheel only - that's in fact how I have usually seen it explained. So to evaluate precession's part in countersteering, disposing of the angular momentum of the front wheel only, is all that is necessary. There is still the stability provided by the rotation of the rear wheel and the motor. I know that in many cases, the crankshaft rotates in the opposite direction to the wheels, but it still resists movement in some planes.
(To test this for yourself, try changing down a couple of gears next time a crosswind is buffeting you around.)
A quick analysis of the MAGNITUDE of the forces in play leads to the conclusion that there MAY be something other than precession at work. It takes remarkably little effort to tip in a bike of considerable mass that is also spin stabilised by the rear wheel and the motor.

[Mikkel]

Call me an ignoramus if you like, but surely when you move your body weight and cause the bike to tip in without your hand/s on the bars (which I do regularly) the bike itself is countersteering. Just because you are not directly putting the action in through the bars yourself does not mean the action is not happening. I dare, nay double-dare, anyone to successfully turn a bike at speed by using bodyweight only on a bike with locked bars. Oh that's right, Keith Code already did that for us. But still the debate rages on.

I have played around with weight transfer to make a bike turn when this argument came up long enough ago that you would have still been shitting in your nappies,and the direction changes that could be initiated wouldn't get you around any 1/2 way decent corner

They are still countersteering...people need to learn to read

Well, I think we need to keep and eye on the difference between steering the bike and actively countersteering in order to make rapid changes of direction.

If there wasn't a distinction between these why would there ever have been a reason to point out the whole countersteering thing in the first place?

While I disagree with some of what Forest wrote the link he provided to the page about trail and such provided a good explanation for what happens when you try to twist the handle bars on a bike the travels at speed. The countersteering action is used to lean the bike over - not to steer it. When the bike leans over the steering geometry takes care of the rest - and no, the steering geometry doesn't cause the bike to countersteer...
Also, as FROSTY wrote - countersteering doesn't really work at low speed, at those speeds you steer the bike around by point the wheel where you want to go.

Anyway, a lot of this commotion probably arises from the fact that the world works in quite a different way than we intuitively understands it. Which is one of the reasons why it took such a long time before a guy like Newton (acurate description) sorted out the erroneous assumptions made by Aristotle (intuitive description).

Also, whether I was shitting my nappies or not wouldn't have prevented anyone from reaching the wrong conclusions - indeed the entire history of mankind is quite rife with astounding cases of idiocy.

[Biggles2000]

Sorry Grub I disagree. I believe it is impossible for a bike to go around a corner without countersteering. Body position, and centifugal mumbo jumbo is just tekno babble. A motorcycle goes around corners because it has been placed on a lean by countersteering and the outside of the front tyre has a smaller radius than the centre of the front tyre.