If you ever start thinking you're safe...

[Mikkel]

There are aolways exceptions, but , by a massive margin, I would say the best riders AND drivers are those who start off on bikes, or bikes and cars at the same time . Those with experience driving cars who come later to bikes always have a lot of cager habits that need to be unlearned if they are to be safe riders . They don't always realise this of course, and often don't admit it.

Road rules, traffic sense, are good but don't outweigh the fact that a rider needs a totally different outlook to a cager . A bike is NOT a two wheeled car.

Do you think that this might have something to do with the fact that people who get into motorcycling at a young age either has the "RIGHT STUFF" or stuffs it pretty early on?

I think you're right in so far that - as has generally been agreed up - kiwis are pretty poor drivers and road user training is lacking. If they take those habits and attitudes from a car to a motorcycle they are likely to get a nasty wake-up call indeed. However, I don't think this is proof of a car necessarily being a poor learning environment.

And after 50 years I still fear motorcycles. They can hurt you, kill you. Only a fool would not fear them. But then I fear many things. Car, electricity, slippery floors, wobbly ladders. They can hurt or kill you too.

Funny that modern technology isn't on that list. That's usually number one on some older peoples list. Glad to see it isn't in this case though.

I however agree with the respect thing. Fear is the mind-killer...

[MSTRS:Me]

I disagree - I think it's a good stepping stone. Learning road rules, how traffic works, basic clutch management, etc, in a safer environment. I think having a class 1 should be a prerequisit (SP?) for getting a 6L.

I hear what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. How many calls have there been on KB over the years for motorists to start their 'career' on a bike? We know it's never going to happen, but learning on a bike first gives one skills in road safety management that will never be learned in a car.
Comparing control of the vehicle is not a cross-over skill, however, because the 2 vehicle types use different limbs for those purposes....whilst learning these skills, you are programming pathways in your brain and you will not use the same pathway for the equivalent action - ie car/clutch/foot...bike/clutch/hand...etc.

[swbarnett]

Fear is an emotional response to real or perceived dangers. This leads to the fight or flight response if the worst happens. When riding this is the last thing you want as the subconscious takes over will quite likely induce panic. Even though the panic is brief it can use up the split second you need to stay upright.

Respect is the conscious knowledge that your bike can kill you and you better keep your wits about you. When things go wrong your mind is geared to react in a constructive manner. You're less likely to panic.

[BiK3RChiK]

Fear, respect, either or a bit of both! Who cares what you call it. I think the intention of the article is there. We don't want to do the typical KB thing and muddy the real meaning of a well written piece, by picking apart the terminology.

Good read Learner Zealot a timely reminder we all need from time to time.

Well said! Good intent... Keep it cool, guys! +1

M

[Ixion]

Funny that modern technology isn't on that list. That's usually number one on some older peoples list. Glad to see it isn't in this case though.

I however agree with the respect thing. Fear is the mind-killer...

Urban myth. "older" people (whatever that means ) have no greater fear' of odern technology than anyone else. Maybe less in fact.

And in my case I spend most of my working day hitting the latest techmogogoly around the earhole, and beating it into a quivering lump huddled in the corner. And then stamp on it with hobnailled boots. Nothing to fear there, it can't hurt anyone.

[MSTRS:Me]

Urban myth. "older" people (whatever that means ) have no greater fear' of odern technology than anyone else. Maybe less in fact.

And in my case I spend most of my working day hitting the latest techmogogoly around the earhole, and beating it into a quivering lump huddled in the corner. And then stamp on it with hobnailled boots. Nothing to fear there, it can't hurt anyone.

Esp. if you had triconies fitted eh?

[MsKABC]

You certainly have to learn a whole new set of skills when you start to ride bikes, and I guess there are some bad driving habits that could easily be transferred to riding. I know I have definitely become a better driver since I start riding.

I think one of the key things to safe riding (and driving for that matter) is knowing your limits and not riding beyond them. I guess that makes me a nana!

[Ragingrob]

I think both riding and driving do correlate and assist each other. Either way if you start doing the other than you already know the road rules and how traffic works and have experience being a road user. I myself started riding after driving for a while and haven't had any problems, I have liked the fact that I know my way around the road and can deal with situations before even learning to ride, otherwise I'd be having to learn two things at once! What are these "bad habits" cagers have that could be transferred to riding? Would these not be bad habits that original riders could perhaps have anyway?

[Ixion]

Not reading the road surface
Braking when something goes wrong (instead of dodging or accelerating)
Assuming
Relying on other people doing what they should
Not respecting dodgy surfaces (that one usually gets learned quickly)
Day dreaming
Not lane splitting
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic

Probably others, those spring to mind.

[Badjelly]

Being extremely careless about the placement of their vehicles on the road.

[Ixion]

Yes. And lack of situational awareness generally.

[Badjelly]

Yes. And lack of situational awareness generally.

I don't know which is worse: people who drive their cars the way they drive their supermarket trolleys, or people who drive their supermarket trolleys the way they drive their cars.

[Ragingrob]

Ok well you do have good drivers and bad, just like you have good riders and bad. Some of those things are things that you only need to know as a rider and not when driving a car, and I believe the other things are what many bad drivers would have. Surely a good driver would transfer to riding well and vice versa, and a bad driver would ride badly and vice versa too?

I've just thought of what maybe could be a large problem and that is drivers learning to ride but thinking they can just get up and go and ride the same as they drive. They would end up in the ditch very quickly. The mindset has to be "OK I'll take my experience from driving in terms of traffic and rules etc, but I'll leave my ego at home while I LEARN to ride as a LEARNER". I'd say people who start to ride after driving would have no problem if those were their thoughts.

As a driver I am very aware of my surroundings, never just slam on the brakes, try not to assume, don't rely on others, watch out for road conditions and don't day dream.

Yes I stop and the back of traffic and don't lane split in my car but have learnt these through biking.

It's all about your attitude to learning, both in cars and on bikes!

[Jiminy]

Not reading the road surface
Braking when something goes wrong (instead of dodging or accelerating)
Assuming
Relying on other people doing what they should
Not respecting dodgy surfaces (that one usually gets learned quickly)
Day dreaming
Not lane splitting
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic

Being extremely careless about the placement of their vehicles on the road.

It's funny, I've learned most of those things driving a car first, including not braking in a curve. Maybe it's the Kiwi driving standard that is too low?

The ones I haven't learned in a car are:
Not braking when something goes wrong (still working on that one)
Lane splitting (I'm not in a hurry to learn that one)
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic (same, it's even illegal in my country)

And, driving a car first got me used to the clutch (driving automatic cars is boring).

However, I must admit that riding a bike multiplied my awareness of traffic and road conditions by 10. Oh, and I was riding a mountain bike for years, so I guess I'm biased.

And I agree with the respect thing. When I feel fearful on the bike, I ride back home and go on foot.

[Ixion]

Ok well you do have good drivers and bad, just like you have good riders and bad. Some of those things are things that you only need to know as a rider and not when driving a car, and I believe the other things are what many bad drivers would have. Surely a good driver would transfer to riding well and vice versa, and a bad driver would ride badly and vice versa too?

Yes, to be sure, a bad driver will certainly make a bad rider.

But the converse may not be true. After many years of driving a car, a person will have learned ingrained, automatic responses. Some of these are not bad when driving, may even be correct, but are wrong on a bike. Others are 'lazinesses' which you can 'get away' with in a car, but will not on a bike.

Depending on the mental flexibility of the person, unlearning these learned behaviours may be difficult. In some cases impossible.

I've just thought of what maybe could be a large problem and that is drivers learning to ride but thinking they can just get up and go and ride the same as they drive. They would end up in the ditch very quickly. The mindset has to be "OK I'll take my experience from driving in terms of traffic and rules etc, but I'll leave my ego at home while I LEARN to ride as a LEARNER". I'd say people who start to ride after driving would have no problem if those were their thoughts.

As a driver I am very aware of my surroundings, never just slam on the brakes, try not to assume, don't rely on others, watch out for road conditions and don't day dream.

Yes I stop and the back of traffic and don't lane split in my car but have learnt these through biking.

It's all about your attitude to learning, both in cars and on bikes!

Precisely so. But as I note above, unlearning learned behaviour is not easy.

Whilst there are many practices or habits that are OK in a car, but bad news on a bike, there are very few things about riding a bike that are unwise when driving (automatically attempting to lane split is probably one!)

And bike riders tend to learn fairly early that the penalty for getting things wrong involves much pain. Car drivers often never learn that. So riders turned drivers are far far more cautious than drivers turned riders.

Overall, it is much better to start on two wheels

I maintain, indeed, that the licence age should be reduced to 14 for < 125cc bikes. For that very reason.