Fisher & Paykel - fuc-ing shocking

[HenryDorsetCase]

Some valid points there (although I don't have a plasma or a Thai wife or coffeetable), but what's the end game? We keep shifting manufacturing capability somewhere cheaper, big race to the bottom, and then what?

OK, my view is that the new economy is one based on ideas. Like Facebook say, or google. billion dollar corporations which didnt exist fifteen years ago (or even five!). who in the hell cares where the routers or servers or screens are made, sure they're made somewhere, they're outsourced to where it is cheapest to manufacture them. Twenty years ago that was Japan, now its China, in twenty years it might be an automatic factory crawling along the seabottom which mines its own ores, recycles its own waste, and shoots finished products out a railgun mounted on its bum to the waiting consumers of the world.

It doesnt matter. The big issue is where the ideas that drive that next economy come from. Possibly its a numbers game. Now you should be worried because there are more Chinese/Indians on the planet than everyone else so statistically they should start producing more of the next best ideas than anyone else.

here is an interesting and related fact: the most expensive piece of dirt on the planet sold last year. $100M USD. Where was it? Downtown Mumbai.

[Burrt Badger]

F & P's move is just the start. WHY would you want to be be an employer in NZ, let alone try to make stuff to export. We have a Government that rapes the workers and rewards the shirkers. They also punish employers much more harshly than they do criminals. Compliance costs are phenominal, which you now add Kiwisaver and the time taken for that and the effective wage rise given to staff who enrol, in it.
As a person who owns a business, a home and a holiday bach, I pay, Company tax, PAYE(wife and I), FBT (wife and I) GST on everything we buy, Rates (3 lots, for business, home and bach) and the realted Ware rates etc, With holding tax ( tax on interest earnt on savings which you have already paid tax on) ACC, Petrol taxes, etc etc.
Where is the economic direction for New Zealand. There is none, because the encumbents dont have a clue and never have had and are so totally corrupted by power and the need to retain it, that they spend more time trying to come up with pathetic character assassinations of the leader of the opposition than they do administering a country in crisis. I dont care who leads the country, as long as they providev a strong economic base, direction and work on retaining the major employers we still have, because very shortly we will ALL have to work the land as a third world country because there will bne no industry, or employers left.

[ynot slow]

Get a decent accountant re kiwisaver scheme.Employers get tax credits if they match employees contributions to it.Yep it appears staff get a 4% rise,but it is taken from our existing wages,not added to them,and it must be a good idea for the company to add their 4% to match mine.Our company did just that when kiwisaver came into force,my 4% plus their 4%.It isn't compulsery to do so,they could do it 1% per year,but the tax credits make it worthwhile.

[Ocean1]

It's not just about labour costs, cheap labour ain't worth the discounted price if you can't integrate your business with the local social environment. I've seen one of the most prolific and historically savvy Japanese manufacturers fail abysmally in Malaysia simply because their methodologies weren’t compatible with the local culture.

The other big motivator to emigrate manufacturing capacity is compliance costs. They’re very difficult to quantify but they represent a very real disadvantage for doing business in NZ. Comparatively high labour costs has been a feature of the NZ landscape for decades, offset, (I like to think) by Kiwi innovation, allowing NZ manufacturing to survive. It’s the paper war that got them in the end, they simply can’t live in such a toxic environment.

We still have the primary producers, dairy and forestry products, they can’t move, they’re tied to their materials source, that’s why they’re all that’s left here. It’s not enough to keep the country solvent at our current std of living though, noticed what milk and building materials cost have been doing lately?

[rainman]

OK, my view is that the new economy is one based on ideas. Like Facebook say, or google. billion dollar corporations which didnt exist fifteen years ago (or even five!). who in the hell cares where the routers or servers or screens are made, sure they're made somewhere, they're outsourced to where it is cheapest to manufacture them.

Yeah, we'll just have all the ideas, and get Other People Far Away to do all the hard work implementing them, that'll work. Mining the raw materials, processing them into tangible products of our design. But wait, they'll need machines, and factories, and industrial processes... and those are ideas. Can't have that, we'll have to sell them our manufacturing ideas. Except we won't have any because they'll have all the, you know, actual experience. Maybe we can sell them entertainment. The next thing after Bebo! (Or did someone do that already and Bebo is like, so last week...?)

And pity those among us who aren't big on designing then next big new Web 3.0 thang. They'll just lose their jobs and go on a benefit, damn bludgers.

Google has made a very small number of people obscenely rich, with wealth way beyond their needs. How do you think that could possibly work as a "new economy".

This stuff is important. Think about it.

[firefighter]

The Bloody Labour Gummint should pay them the subsidy they were going to pay the All Blacks. Or pass a law making F&P and all other manufacturers stay in New Zealand until they go bust. Makes sense.

exactly..........

[merv]

Made-in-China.com lists 1999 chinese refrigerator manufacturers. Now, it's 2000.

I'd be quite certain that at least one , probably hundreds of the other 1999 can undercut F&P. And someone will organise importing them.

You've got a fixation on China but this one is going to Mexico - comment was made on the news about how there are no tarrifs for them to import the materials they need from USA to make stuff there and how there are no tarrifs on them to export the finished stuff to USA.

F&P are also shutting plants in California and Brisbane with large layoffs to do the Mexico thing.

[Ixion]

China, Mexico, is all the same. Cheap peon labour.

I'm just referencing China cos info on them is a lot easier to find (in English) on the web.

Reckon Mexico built is going to be any better than China built ?

End result its still the same, F&P have sold out and are no longer a NZ company.

Every bit of whiteware in our house is F&P. Most people I know, the same. Not bought because F&P were $x cheaper, but because F&P were the Kiwi company. Now, they've kicked that back in the faces of Kiwis.

So, why should I think that a Mexican fridge is any better than a Chinese one ? Actually, I'd say the chinese one is probably a better bet.

(Tis not just Kiwis that F&P have shafted of course, Aussies are hit too, and they are not happy)

Somebody asked what unions could do. Well, a load out ban on the wharves on any F&P foreign made goods would be a start. Not going to sell NZ made? The you won't sell anything .Picket lines on stores selling F&P products would be a good follow up.

That's what we would have done when I was in the union movement. Simpering wimps nowdays won;t be up for that though

[Rogue]

It all has to do with MONEY, MONEY and MORE MONEY
These firms that go overseas are not interested in looking after their staff their focus is on making MONEY for their share holders
GOOD ON YA SWAZI FOR STAYING IN NZ wish there were more companies like you!!

[SixPackBack]

A few points:

• N.Z is shit house for manufacturing, we will not 'live or die' because of manufacturing. [or a lack of]
• Wages are to expensive.
• Labour resources poor in the extreme.
• Individuals and companies put money into shares to make more money, not to see it pissed down the gurgler.
• China can and does manufacture quality product.
• N.Z is very good at R&D. Why not complete that here and let labour rich countries do what they do best-produce our product from our intelectual property.
• Chill out. N.Z has never known a period of time with less unemployment and unless you're a total fuckwit [Skidmark] finding suitable employment will be a straight forward proposition.

[bikemike]

Google has made a very small number of people obscenely rich, with wealth way beyond their needs. How do you think that could possibly work as a "new economy".

This stuff is important. Think about it.

Spot on Rainman. These decisions based around profitability now, may seem inevitable and so on, and I agree with points you and Dorset make, but those decisions are being made so much on Financial and Energy infrastructures and economics continuing on essentially the same co-dependent model. I don't see that being so for too long now...
How long can we continue to propagate the buy cheap and replace model of consumption. How soon before quality and durability become paramount to any investment?
How long will we be able to afford shipping stuff hither and thither that needs not be?
What are the triggers that would make ours a low (average) wage economy compared to the booming manufacturing zones?

Still, I haven't been buying F&P anyway, as I perceive its quality as pretty shite already - offshoring seems inevitable in that race to the bottom for them. Some have offered this as a Hobson's choice in terms of survivability for the company but it is only that the company wanted to grow to be so big and had to compete on price and sacrifice quality to get absolute market share that it finds itself in this position. Making and selling fewer and better quality goods would also have been an option for the survivability of the company. Sacrificing market share and growth for quality and sustainability.

We run into this problem more and more here as with 4M heads, there's often no local production at an acceptable quality / energy efficiency.

Do they still insist on exclusive retail floor brand presence?

[JimO]

there has been a rumour around dunedin regarding FnP shutting down for over a year.

And regarding outsourcing the mighty Toyota Hilux is now made in Thailand

[Ixion]

Spot on Rainman. These decisions based around profitability now, may seem inevitable and so on, and I agree with points you and Dorset make, but those decisions are being made so much on Financial and Energy infrastructures and economics continuing on essentially the same co-dependent model. I don't see that being so for too long now...
How long can we continue to propagate the buy cheap and replace model of consumption. How soon before quality and durability become paramount to any investment?
How long will we be able to afford shipping stuff hither and thither that needs not be?
What are the triggers that would make ours a low (average) wage economy compared to the booming manufacturing zones?

Still, I haven't been buying F&P anyway, as I perceive its quality as pretty shite already - offshoring seems inevitable in that race to the bottom for them. Some have offered this as a Hobson's choice in terms of survivability for the company but it is only that the company wanted to grow to be so big and had to compete on price and sacrifice quality to get absolute market share that it finds itself in this position. Making and selling fewer and better quality goods would also have been an option for the survivability of the company. Sacrificing market share and growth for quality and sustainability.

We run into this problem more and more here as with 4M heads, there's often no local production at an acceptable quality / energy efficiency.

Do they still insist on exclusive retail floor brand presence?

Very good points . (though I hastily denonunce any Greenie implications).

Chasing cheap labour is very much yesterday's economy. The economy of the future is not going to be around mass production and shaving point 0.001 of a cent off the labour cost, it's going to be about adapability, sustainability (shut up you Greenies, it wasn't your idea and it's not greenie anyway), and versatility.

20th century economics was encapsulated by Henry Ford "You can have any color you want so long a s it's black). The economics of the 21st century will be more about "This is Burger King , you can have it any way you want".

F&P have opted out of the 21st century. Thailand isn't going to give them smart manufacturing. It may give them cheap manufacturing for a year or two, but in the not far future (maybe even within my lifetime), cheap manufacture is going to mean diddly squat if the product is a dreg on the market and stuck somewhere where it can't economically be shipped from.

[Timber020]

F & P's move is just the start. WHY would you want to be be an employer in NZ, let alone try to make stuff to export. We have a Government that rapes the workers and rewards the shirkers. They also punish employers much more harshly than they do criminals. Compliance costs are phenominal, which you now add Kiwisaver and the time taken for that and the effective wage rise given to staff who enrol, in it.
As a person who owns a business, a home and a holiday bach, I pay, Company tax, PAYE(wife and I), FBT (wife and I) GST on everything we buy, Rates (3 lots, for business, home and bach) and the realted Ware rates etc, With holding tax ( tax on interest earnt on savings which you have already paid tax on) ACC, Petrol taxes, etc etc.
Where is the economic direction for New Zealand. There is none, because the encumbents dont have a clue and never have had and are so totally corrupted by power and the need to retain it, that they spend more time trying to come up with pathetic character assassinations of the leader of the opposition than they do administering a country in crisis. I dont care who leads the country, as long as they providev a strong economic base, direction and work on retaining the major employers we still have, because very shortly we will ALL have to work the land as a third world country because there will bne no industry, or employers left.

I have a mate who moved to the Uk and started a landscaping business. He hires 2 guys there, just like he did running a landscaping business here. He used to spend a couple hours a week doing paperwork, now he says he spends half a day a week dealing with the paperwork in the UK, and the tax is through the roof.
Nobody likes paying tax, or doing paperwork, but its the cost of running a business, as far as I have seen, its no better anywhere else worth living.

We cant expect companies like FP to stay while we flock to mitre ten mega for $1 screwdrivers or drive imported cars. We like cheap goods, we dont want to only get paid a dollar a day, we dont get our cake and eat it to.

[Ocean1]

A few points:

• N.Z is shit house for manufacturing, we will not 'live or die' because of manufacturing. [or a lack of]
  NZ is a shithouse environment for manufacturing. As for how important that is… ALL revenue can be traced to a manufacturing entity, if we’re not making anything then the secondary and tertiary services they employ will die too.
• Wages are to expensive.
  For the value returned, yup.
• Labour resources poor in the extreme.
  Yeah, the other reason China looks attractive, 4 times the output for around a tenth of the cost.
• Individuals and companies put money into shares to make more money, not to see it pissed down the gurgler.
  Yup, very few of them are charities, although a lot of businesses support their local communities well.
• China can and does manufacture quality product.
  And crap, same as most countries.
• N.Z is very good at R&D. Why not complete that here and let labour rich countries do what they do best-produce our product from our intelectual property.
  Yesss… many NZ companies have evolved into product development cells and done well for a time. A significant number of them are sold to large multi-nationals though, which is understandable. What I don’t understand fully is the fact that they often then don’t survive long. Perhaps it’s the cultural thing again.
• Chill out. N.Z has never known a period of time with less unemployment and unless you're a total fuckwit [Skidmark] finding suitable employment will be a straight forward proposition.

Wonder how long all dem accountants, analysts, bureaucrats, barristers and colour consultants will last without their meal tickets…