So who's the terrorist again?

[Ixion]

If all the bludgers and no hopers would be kicked out of the handout system ...then those who realy are in need of financial assistance could be properly looked after.....

And none of us would mind looking after those who realy need that help.........

Well spoken. So, the Communist Party can look forward to your vote?

Communism - socialism for workers who are sick of subsidising shirkers.

[awayatc]

The only"ism's" I would subscribe to would be humanism with a healthy dose of rationalism......

Of course my deeply entrenched Sailor's individualism excludes me from most organisms.......

[Clockwork]

Under the current health system people are encouraged to get fat or smoke, etc, because they know that they can get free healthcare. If we had a health insurance system instead these choices would have consequences of higher premiums, therefore encouraging people to stop smoking or stop eating mcdonalds.

I guess this must mean that in countries like the USA poor people must live a much healthier lifestyle.

[alanzs]

Under the current health system people are encouraged to get fat or smoke, etc, because they know that they can get free healthcare. If we had a health insurance system instead these choices would have consequences of higher premiums, therefore encouraging people to stop smoking or stop eating mcdonalds.

I have lived under the US healthcare system most of my life. I know it intimately. You generally get health insurance through your employment, as if you do it without the blanket group coverage that the employer offers, your premiums can be so high that you can't afford it. If you have any pre-existing conditions, you may not ever get covered. Only those people that are either 100% poor or on the dole get government assistance. Everyone else has to fend for themselves. Example, I have a family of four. I paid $1200US and my employer paid $1300US monthly. $2500 a month total, or $30,000 a year. The rates typically went up every year. Many things were not covered at all, and they were important things. And, often, the things that were covered were not paid for fully. Medications were not covered well, if at all. Except for emergencies, you need approval from the insurance company before getting anything done. Getting denied was common. My son broke his arm snowboarding and needed surgery to repair the break. He was in hospital for one night. The bill was $60,000. We had to pay about $1800, because some of the things they did were not covered, or exceeded the amount they would cover.
I can't express to you the absolute overwhelming anxiety you lived in knowing that if you lose your job, you have no medical coverage.
Our medical system here isn't perfect, but as a father, knowing your children will get medical treatment means a lot.
Apparently, 20% of the US's 300 million people have no medical coverage. Watch the movie "Sicko" and you will see what healthcare coverage, when left to the free market looks like. It is very scary and very real.

[awayatc]

+ 1 .....

Used to live in the US of A for a while as well...chose paypacket without medical insurance being young and bulletproof.......
When my wife got pregnant in California we could only persuade ONE Gynaecologist for a first and single visit...
cash...off course.
We decided not to take the financial risk of childbirth in same states.......

NZ may not be perfect, but compared to the States it nearly is.......

[idleidolidyll]

I have lived under the US healthcare system most of my life. I know it intimately.

Thanks for that dose of reality. I pay $80 a month with Southern Cross for extra cover over and above ACC and our Health System.
A study a couple of years ago ranked NZ as 2nd best in all OECD nations for Health care. The cost was half that of the US per person and we had far better service for almost everything. The only area NZ lost out to the US was in the provision of the very latest cutting edge proceedures and technologies. Those that are of course, unavailable to any but the very wealthy anyway.

3 years ago I broke my back in a mountain bike accident and was paralysed down my right side. After 5 months or so I was able to have an operation where the surgeon took my lower rib and used it to replace the shattered bones in my spine. He also decompressed the spinal chord and of course removed all the pieces of bone. I was walking again the next day and after 6 months was able to ride a bicycle again.
I have been told that the cost of 5that Op would have been about NZ$100,000. All of it was covered by ACC as is my ongoing care and pain relief etc.

I suspect the same Op in the US would have been at least US$250,000 and depending on your life insurance policy or that of your employer, may not have been covered adequatelty or at all.

Certainly the 40 million US Citizens who can't afford adequate health care in the US would have faced life in a wheelchair or worse (the possibility of further deterioration). Their ongoing pain without surgery would have been almost unbearable as mine was before the surgery.

Without ACC I would not be walking, riding my mountainbike, riding my motorbike and I would probably have had to crap and pee in bags for the rest of my shortened life.

Think about it: are tax cuts worth destroying our health care system?

[alanzs]

Thanks for that dose of reality. I pay $80 a month with Southern Cross for extra cover over and above ACC and our Health System.
A study a couple of years ago ranked NZ as 2nd best in all OECD nations for Health care. The cost was half that of the US per person and we had far better service for almost everything. The only area NZ lost out to the US was in the provision of the very latest cutting edge proceedures and technologies. Those that are of course, unavailable to any but the very wealthy anyway.

3 years ago I broke my back in a mountain bike accident and was paralysed down my right side. After 5 months or so I was able to have an operation where the surgeon took my lower rib and used it to replace the shattered bones in my spine. He also decompressed the spinal chord and of course removed all the pieces of bone. I was walking again the next day and after 6 months was able to ride a bicycle again.
I have been told that the cost of 5that Op would have been about NZ$100,000. All of it was covered by ACC as is my ongoing care and pain relief etc.

I suspect the same Op in the US would have been at least US$250,000 and depending on your life insurance policy or that of your employer, may not have been covered adequatelty or at all.

Certainly the 40 million US Citizens who can't afford adequate health care in the US would have faced life in a wheelchair or worse (the possibility of further deterioration). Their ongoing pain without surgery would have been almost unbearable as mine was before the surgery.

Without ACC I would not be walking, riding my mountainbike, riding my motorbike and I would probably have had to crap and pee in bags for the rest of my shortened life.

Think about it: are tax cuts worth destroying our health care system?

Health is our only real wealth.

You would have been, to put it mildly, fucked, if you lived in the US without excellent insurance for the injuries you have sustained and the care you need(ed). Even the best insurance that I ever saw, generally had a million dollars TOTAL lifetime payment clause attached to it. I also worked for some very big companies, so the insurance was usually some of the best you could get.

Open heart by-pass surgery can cost you 1/2 million dollars.

A friend back in LA just recently had a colonoscopy and it cost $20,000. This is a simple out patient procedure, takes about an hour.

If you don't have the money, you don't get the treatment. You could mortgage your house or figure a way to come up with the money. Doctors will negotiate a cash price, typically 80-90% of the insurance price.

The healthcare system here is as good as any care I ever had back in the States, and better, in that there isn't the unbelievable amount of paperwork that you have to do and just not having the anxiety of not being able to get care if you are ill is healthier.

As New Zealander's, we really should be proud of how we care for each other! I know that I am very proud and honored to be here and am glad that my tax dollars, high as they are, go to help each other rather than build nuclear weapons and a huge military, as just one example. Butter or guns, which will it be?

"You may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..."

[Flatcap]

Butter or guns, which will it be?

Margarine

I can't afford butter

[MisterD]

Think about it: are tax cuts worth destroying our health care system?

Tell me again why my taxes are actually subsidising a massive increase in Wellington-based beaurocrats and Liarbore's election campaign?

Your party line parroting of the tax cuts=service cuts is getting boring.

[SPman]

Your party line parroting of the tax cuts=service cuts is getting boring.

Yep - pity that it's true, isn't it.

[mstriumph]

They either:

• Stopped pretending to be sick and found a job; or
• Died

It comes back to the old adage about the purpose of the welfare state. Is it to provide a safety net, or to provide a hammock?

to some of us, it's the mark of a civilized people that the strong protect the weak ....... and to some of us 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' is an enlightened goal........

the problem is, of course, trying to ascertain both the ability AND the need ...... anything that is open to debate is open to exploitation by the unscrupulous ........

but, on balance, i guess i'd rather my taxes funded the occasional health-cheat bludging useless lying wanker [like my neighbour] rather than set the bar so low that people with GENUINE needs and disabilities had to go without ...................

[Jez]

you take the good
you take the bad
you take it all
and then you have
the facts of life!

by providing a humanitarian service to honest sickness beneficaries you will have to take the minority that are taking advantage of the system. that is the way life is.

"Every country has the government they deserve" ... can't remember who said that, but its very true!

[alanzs]

Margarine

I can't afford butter

Me too. But Vegemite is in a class of its own.

[alanzs]

you take the good
you take the bad
you take it all
and then you have
the facts of life!

by providing a humanitarian service to honest sickness beneficaries you will have to take the minority that are taking advantage of the system. that is the way life is.

"Every country has the government they deserve" ... can't remember who said that, but its very true!

There are always going to be those that take advantage of any system. I guess thats where "karma" fits in.

[pete376403]

Three years ago I had a cochlear implant installed. I understand the total cost, including rehab, was around $50,000. Cost to me, thanks to the NZ health system, $0. If I had not had this op, by now I would be totally deaf, and probably unemployable. As I have remained in employment, I have in that time "paid back" the $50K in taxes, and I don't begrudge this one damn bit.
The same operation in the USA costs around $250,000, NOT including rehab afterwards.
The NZ health system, for all its faults, works pretty well most of the time. As it did when I had a heart attack, but thats another story.