Training

[James Deuce]

A little bit, aye.



Edit: By the way, all this theorising about trackdays is theorising. It's not driven by experience or data, and it seems to be coming (no offense, Jim) from folk who haven't actually had any decent time on the track themselves. Get out there and do it and you'll see what folk mean regarding learning to ride - after track time, what used to be 'technical' road riding becomes a breeze, giving you far more cognitive capacity available to think strategically about keeping yourself safe.

HAve you read naything I wrote?

I used to race dude. I used to go to trackdays before they were called track days.

I am offended. I thought you were of the opinion that I had no track time. You haven't been listening. It's not theorising. I've buried mates who were good riders, but couldn't change from track to road and back. Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead or paralysed. Maybe not half but it feels like it.

You need to get a grip on that arrogance chap.

[jrandom]

I used to race dude. I used to go to trackdays before they were called track days.

I know. I wasn't pointing the finger at you (swot I meant by 'no offense, Jim'). I should have been clearer, rather than just phrasing my statement in general terms.

Fact remains, though, that insisting that trackdays don't confer usable road skills constitutes catering for the lowest common denominator - the people who aren't capable of figuring out how to use the track to make themselves safer on the road.

Those people can get fucked. Track time has saved my arse on the road just plenty.

[Katman]

Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead

You sure that's not from old age?

[jrandom]

It's not theorising. I've buried mates who were good riders, but couldn't change from track to road and back. Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead or paralysed. Maybe not half but it feels like it.

Due to road bins?

And your point is that they'd have been safer if they hadn't learned how to ride fast on the track and then gone out on the road and ridden fast?

Once again. Lowest common denominator.

It's not that riding on the racetrack doesn't give you better control of your bike. We're back to Katman's thing - attitude.

And I think the point where we disagree is the idea that learning about how to control a motorcycle nearer the limits of performance is likely to be fatal to a rider's attitude on the road.

Philosophically speaking, it sticks in my craw to modify any of my behaviour or refrain from sharing any of my experiences because idiots might get the wrong end of the stick from it.

Neither do I feel compelled to save the idiots from themselves.

I can't speak for everyone - all I can say is, riding on the track has made me safer on the road due to being able to devote more conscious thought time to strategic safety rather than bike control mechanics, and I know lots of guys (and girls) who feel exactly the same way.

I'd suspect that your badly-flavoured experiences on the track came down to having to share it with a bunch of practicing racers with their egos on the line.

'Rider training' days (yes, that's really what they are, even though they're fun too) like MotoTT are an entirely different environment.

You need to get a grip on that arrogance chap.

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you happen to be right about something.

[James Deuce]

Nice backtrack Dan.

The track is not a training arena for the road. In that you are wrong.

From my perspective your track time hasn't been that healthy for your license, now has it?

So far it is only your license. The attitudes bred at the track and even "fun" track days are bad news for road riding. There's plenty of racers on KB who publicly state that they don't ride on the road because it screws up their track riding. The reverse is true.

[jrandom]

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you happen to be right about something.

You know what the problem is here?

We're both right.

We're just approaching it from different angles.

I think the best course of action is to encourage both trackday participation and safe roadriding attitudes.

[jrandom]

Nice backtrack Dan.

My specialty!

From my perspective your track time hasn't been that healthy for your license, now has it?

Given that 70 of the points that I lost my licence for were gathered in the car, a year before the first time I ever rode on the track, I'm not sure that it's particularly related.

And I've never had a speeding ticket on the bike that wasn't an "inattention to cruising speed on a big wide open road" situation. Surely you're not going to argue that 120kph on the Napier-Taupo plains is a safety issue? My ability to ride safely and whether or not I ever drift 20kph above arbitrary speed limits on long straight roads are two different things.

But I shouldn't need to make that point to you or anyone else around here. Don't be disingenuous.

So far it is only your license.

Irrelevant low blows, Jim. Like I said, being nickel-and-dimed to death through an unwillingness to cruise motorways at 110 instead of 120 has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

There's plenty of racers on KB who publicly state that they don't ride on the road because it screws up their track riding.

'Screws up', in this case, meaning 'slows down'. Because riding on the road has nothing to do with getting the most out of the bike - it requires keeping yourself safe. And they need to get out of that habit if they want to win races.

The reverse is true.

Nope, I don't think that that's valid logic.

Learning bike control skills on the track and then applying them on the road is not the mirror image of getting into the habit of riding cautiously on the road and then losing races on the track.

[R6_kid:Me]

If you're not locking the front and recovering at a trackday, you're not trying hard enough.

I hope thats a pisstake...

If you're locking the front then you are hitting the brakes too hard and need to go back to get some training on the correct application.


I'm with Jim on this, while track riding does give you some skills that help on the road, I wouldn't call it a training area for the road. Yes I can think of a couple of times that having been to the track has possibly saved my ass, but those situations arose due to the confidence I gained at track being put in to use on the open road.

The track is a place to live out your dream of being a Rossi for a day, albeit only in your own mind.

There is a need for many people to recieve proper training, I have seen this through the time I have spent helping out at RRRS, and generally it is the old-timers and 'experienced' people that are the hardest to teach, as they need to un-learn their incorrect habits first. The same also applies to anyone with an ego bigger than their helmet - hence why skidmark has never shown up. I'm not saying that RRRS is 'proper training', but it is at very least a step in the right direction.

[jrandom]

I hope thats a pisstake...

Of course it is.

while track riding does give you some skills that help on the road, I wouldn't call it a training area for the road.

You just made two contradictory statements in a single sentence. 'Giving some skills that help' is training.

If you then go out and compromise the effectiveness of those skills by being a knuckle-dragging doofus on the road, that doesn't change the fact that gaining the skills constituted relevant training.

It's like teaching someone to wrestle or box, and then seeing them rush straight into a downtown pub at 2am on a Saturday and pick a fight.

That doesn't make boxing or wrestling Bad (tm), it just means that the person in question is an idiot.

I'm not saying that RRRS is 'proper training', but it is at very least a step in the right direction.

I think I might prove my humility chops by turning up to a RRRS course one of these days and seeing what I can pick up.

[Katman]

It's like teaching someone to wrestle or box, and then seeing them rush straight into a downtown pub at 2am on a Saturday and pick a fight.

That doesn't make boxing or wrestling Bad (tm), it just means that the person in question is an idiot.

Very good analogy.

Anyone game to hazard a guess at the percentage of motorcyclists that are idiots?

[Mikkel]

IT is a matter of knowing what is good training and what is not.

And here I was thinking IT was about making ones and zeros jump through the right loops in the right order (poor joke I know, couldn't help it)

it can also be a fix for a junkie, so he don't go out and get said fix on the highways !

Very true indeed. Unless you're addiction is related to flattering your ego you can indeed satisfy your need for speed on the track instead of using public roads for it.
On the other hand, if it's just a matter of wanting to be faster than your mates, backup all the bullshit you let off at the lunch break or a spell of tanathos - then the track is not going to do anything for you except allow you to eventually crash at a higher speed.

You know what the problem is here?

We're both right.

You certainly both have valid points. Could it be possible that neither of you are right or wrong?


Does the track provide you with an oppotunity to improve your bike handling skills (at speed) and get to know your bike better - most definitely!

Does the track simulate a realistic training setting for roadriding - absolutely not.

Will track time improve your survivability on the public roads - that very much depends upon what kind of person you are, your attitude is, your approach to track time and what you take away from it.

Personally I have no doubt that the time I have spent on the track has benefitted me greatly. I am however very conscious about not riding on the road like I do on the track. E.g. I don't hang off the bike on the public road mainly because it puts me into the wrong mindset - also it leaves me with a reserve if I all of a sudden should need to corner more sharply.
I had my two first offs on the track - which I am thankful for... Hitting the deck at 70 km/h hurts a bit - but it can be fatal if there's stuff to hit, on a track you get up, swear, pick up your bike and ride it back to the pit.

Oh, did I forget to mention it's a lot of fun too? I mean, let's be honest - being able to go as fast as you feel comfortable with, without having to worry about the speedlimit, on-coming traffic, trucks, etc is just awesome. And it's also good exercise - you sleep really well after a long day at the track

Finally I'd like to warmly recommend reading the thread about riding at "The Pace" here in the survival forum. I've made that my biking manifesto.

[jrandom]

I don't hang off the bike on the public road mainly because it puts me into the wrong mindset - also it leaves me with a reserve if I all of a sudden should need to corner more sharply.

Huh?

I shift my weight into corners on the road because it gives me more reserve for the unexpected. More weight transfer = less bike lean for the same cornering speed.

riding at "The Pace"

While everything said in that 'Pace' article is quite correct, it is also one of the wankiest most up-itself wads of self-righteousness that I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

[Mikkel]

I shift my weight into corners on the road because it gives me more reserve for the unexpected. More weight transfer = less bike lean for the same cornering speed.

Well, as I said, the main reason for not hanging off (and by hanging off I mean really hanging off - not just shifting your weight a bit) is that it puts me in the wrong state of mind.
It's pretty quick to slide off your seat if you need to turn sharper.
Besides - sitting upright will give you a better line of sight around the corner too.

While everything said in that 'Pace' article is quite correct, it is also one of the wankiest most up-itself wads of self-righteousness that I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

I'm only concerned with the truth - I don't worry too much about the tone. Maybe that's why I enjoy your posts too

[jrandom]

Maybe that's why I enjoy your posts too

I was totally waiting for that.

[Mikkel]

I was totally waiting for that.

I thought you were - I'd hate to disappoint

But regarding the pace - I can't recall any wanking going on, I just remember thinking "hmmm, this really makes good sense". Will re-read it and see if I can spot what you're getting at.