National level race classes

[Shaun]

not neccicarilly...Andrew and myself had an discusion, not that long ago.
He was more than comfortable with running one set of tyres for qualifiing and every race in a weekend. and I agree...good suspension provides the feel required to ride hard on any tyres its set up for...bad suspension proveds bugger all for any tyres!!

I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

[Robert Taylor]

Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)

Factor 1 Andrews brilliance, I dont take anything away from him and as a test rider he is brilliant, as S Harris often is.

Factor 2 the wet settings better suited the soft damping and Andrew likes a chopper type geometry. He made it work for him and its less clear that anyone else would have.

Factor 3 the other riders were not on their game and should have been

Factor 4 if the other brand of suspension he was running that year had a good wet setting he may have run that.

Ho hum!

[Robert Taylor]

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???[/QUOTE]

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.

[scrivy]

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

Oh how lame dude...... only 185????
How about over 220++ HP on one rear tyre for 4 meetings??? You guys are soft........

Oh yeah, did I mention the worst suspension ever too.........
and the heaviest one in the top 6 machines out there..... (without the weight of the passengers...)

[svr]

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.[/QUOTE]

Having raced both eras on both bikes I'd say they're pretty even, but 250s would be quicker on modern suspension and tires.
250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers). Many chopped in their dirt bikes for 250 and went racing aged 17-18 (even thats too late now though). People like John Hepburn and Mike McCutcheon stayed in the class until they won it - what was the point in moving up? The kids comming in got to ride against quality riders and found out pretty quick 1. how fast their bike could and should go and 2. if they had what it took.
There's no need to dumb down the 2 premier classes but we do need motocrossers etc. making the jump earlier, and in decent numbers. PT probably isn't the ideal class because the bikes are a bit `soft' and easy to ride, it's actually expensive to build a good PT from scratch, and there is little prestige in a class with little support mixed in F3 mid-pack. Should this be the feeder class? We haven't seen its potential yet - maybe if there were 5 class experienced riders racing against 5 really fast youngsters with the balance of 30 odd allsorts having a go we'd be singing it's praises and it'd produce the goods as intended.
Something's missing which is Frosty's point, I guess.

[Shaun]

We all knew less in those days about setup including the riders. SV650s are still not a race bike, they are a friggin heavy old commuter bike with lazy geometry and poor weight distribution for a racebike. That they go as relatively fast as they do is still a revelation.

Having raced both eras on both bikes I'd say they're pretty even, but 250s would be quicker on modern suspension and tires.
250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers). Many chopped in their dirt bikes for 250 and went racing aged 17-18 (even thats too late now though). People like John Hepburn and Mike McCutcheon stayed in the class until they won it - what was the point in moving up? The kids comming in got to ride against quality riders and found out pretty quick 1. how fast their bike could and should go and 2. if they had what it took.
There's no need to dumb down the 2 premier classes but we do need motocrossers etc. making the jump earlier, and in decent numbers. PT probably isn't the ideal class because the bikes are a bit `soft' and easy to ride, it's actually expensive to build a good PT from scratch, and there is little prestige in a class with little support mixed in F3 mid-pack. Should this be the feeder class? We haven't seen its potential yet - maybe if there were 5 class experienced riders racing against 5 really fast youngsters with the balance of 30 odd allsorts having a go we'd be singing it's praises and it'd produce the goods as intended.
Something's missing which is Frosty's point, I guess.[/QUOTE]



QUOTE

There is NO need to Dump down the 2 main classes?

another Quote


250s produced so many good riders because they were cheap and easy to get into (high accessibility, low entrance barriers).


So what are you actually saying?

Production racing was cheap, hense the grids were full back then!

Leave SB as is, it is the Premier class

Make the 600 much much more cost effective to get into, ie Production racing again.

[Shaun]

Okay, ''ShockingShaun'' or ''ShocktestShaun'' A little bit kinder than ''Chainsaw Harris'' a few years back after comprehensively checking the rev limiter calibration on Manfields pit straight every lap of the ( part ) endurance race you did! Dididididididididididididi....kaboom

Haha, every lap for 3HRS and 51 minutes, wot a wanker I as or are?

I was in the lead of that 4 hour race by 1 full lap, and did the whole race on my on, untill I blew the motor BUGGER

[Billy]

So what are you actually saying?

Production racing was cheap, hense the grids were full back then!

Leave SB as is, it is the Premier class

Make the 600 much much more cost effective to get into, ie Production racing again.

Either 600s or pro twins.What a good idea,Guess that means it probably wont happen then aye!!

[cowpoos]

Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)

in the wet...with other riders off thier game as Robert states...Similar to Johan bruns winning wanga's with stock rear shock many years ago...soft settings suited the the rear shock in the wet.

This is a total bollocks LISTEN to me post once again, you are learning about suspension and how it works a ok,but this attitude needs to change mate, you have been on here for ever, and a lot of people read what you say, so go and read what you have said about a 1set of tyres SB class in NZ, and then re read your post that I have quoted above

Get it together man, or carry on being wrong, your choice

For a start shaun...Yourself and I are at a level that we should not use slader at each other if we disagree...we are well above that! and it is far from total bollocks!!

Your perception on suspension is massively different to someone like myself..your average Japanesse superbike is setup in a weight range closer to yours..which is a weight range far far away from my size than yours..and I believe we would have completely different riding styles...you don't have the dirt riding back round that I have..which is usually conclusive with point and squirt type racing...heavy on the brakes,hard on the gas...[which I'm sorry...I really don't need to explain this to you I know...but as other will read and judge my point of view I decided to discribe it]..stock suspension is shit for this style of racing...infact the ak20 cartridges don't like it either..robert has tryed to find something that would work for myself..and found the product wanting..and through lack of funds I didn't upgrade as per his advice..
So as I have different view on what or how I feel [and feel being the operative word] a bike should handle does not in anyway make me wrong...so how can I carry on being wrong??

Re my post reguarding one set of tyres for racing...why the hell not?? you can either make a hugly powerful bike or a low powered bike!! you have so much traction and so much tyres...make them last at your peril. being able to control a bike maybe imperitive in getting anywhere...which may favor the ex-dirt boys [you know where my allegence lay in that reguard] and the people that can set a bike up well and ride it hard reguardless of traction..BUT and a big BUT...through aftermarket suspension they will most importantly have good feel of what thier tyres are doing...rather than the vague feel a stock setup will produce...Feel is paramount you must agree with this...well it comes to confidence? and besides this all shaun...I am intitled to an opinion...as is everyone..like yourself.

I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

No..I did not misunderstand him at all...he made the statement/point...and after some discussion..my point of view changed and I did tend to agree with him. and we not talking about three days of constant use..qualifying and a couple of race's...

[scrivy]

my size than yours..
back round that I have..
BUT and a big BUT...
Feel is paramount you must agree with this...

I like BIG BUTTS and I cannot lie..............

[CHOPPA]

I gaurantee you have mis understood some thing in the conversation with Andrew, myself and him had the same talk recently

It would Be incredibly STUPID to use the current engine tune rules in SB and only one set of tyres for practice, qualify, and races

one set for 3 days on a 185+ HP bike, bahahahaha, go get a tractor dude

I spoke to andrew yesterday and he said 1 set of tyres for qualifying and 1st race, he then said he would try to only do a couple of laps in qualifying so the tyres would last....

[CHOPPA]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

[jrandom]

Someone needs to do a test!

Get a good rider, a standard 600 and a setup supersport 600 go to Taupo or wherever put exactly the same tyres on and do 2 15 lap sessions on each bike and document tyre wear and lap times weather conditions etc possibly repeat at a couple of tracks and there will lie your answer surely?

Put the idea to the boys at BRM.

[Robert Taylor]

Haha, every lap for 3HRS and 51 minutes, wot a wanker I as or are?

I was in the lead of that 4 hour race by 1 full lap, and did the whole race on my on, untill I blew the motor BUGGER

Yeah, you friggin idiot.

''To finish first you must first finish'' A very memorable quote from Jack Brabham after spinning out on the last corner of the last lap of the 1965 Monaco Grand Prix, whilst leading.

[Robert Taylor]

Either 600s or pro twins.What a good idea,Guess that means it probably wont happen then aye!!

And how would you police the suspension in a true production racing class?