True Production Racing series

[sidecar bob]

I really hate to butt in, and I am sorry if I missed this (skipped to the last few pages), but i feel the main reason I enjoy aftermarket suspension is the predictability it brings. Consistent responses when pushing the suspension is what I look for, so I know what the bike is going to do, which in turn goes to safety. I mean, isn't this similar (not identical) to ss brake lines? You don't want your brakes to react completely different in the same turn on different laps, which means you are looking for consistency.

Which turns us into machines, that can only function in a predictable envrioment & if anything unpredictable happens we are hopelessly screwed.
My expierence with racing is that my acceptance that nothing is predictable & my ability to respond at very short notice to a situation that i didnt predict, has made me a leader in my chosen craft.
Assuming that racing is going to be predictable is far more dangerous than running a worn out standard shock absorber.

[Cleve]

Also just wondering how you will save money by spending $2000 (conservative est.) on suspension modifications on a bike that will only be competitive for a season or two.

As has been said before. Tyres. My most recent example of racing was a season and a bit on an R6 (as you may remember). At the end of the season I sold my ohlins for $1000. I am sure over the period of just that one season I saved more than $1000 on tyres alone.
Also as Sam Smith did sub 1 minutes around Pukekohe on an 05 R6 one could say that a well sorted 600 could be competitive at National level, in the right hands, for up to 5 seasons. The saving with the $2000 new ohlins over that kind of period would be much more.
Plus one could argue you are less likely to crash and therefore save money on repair bills

[Cleve]

Which turns us into machines, that can only function in a predictable envrioment & if anything unpredictable happens we are hopelessly screwed.
My expierence with racing is that my acceptance that nothing is predictable & my ability to respond at very short notice to a situation that i didnt predict, has made me a leader in my chosen craft.
Assuming that racing is going to be predictable is far more dangerous than running a worn out standard shock absorber.

are ohlins THAT good!? If only I had your talent Bob, that proper suspension would turn me into a high speed predictable racer. They just made me a little faster, didn't crash for a whole season and loved the extra feel and sensation that I received from them. While cranked over I could feel that my worn out Super Corsas were losing me a little grip and I would note that and respond as needed. You mean it shouldn't be predictable, I shouldn't have that extra "feel" and crash giving myself a more expensive crash repair bill plus potential injuries (I'm in my 40's and I get hurt more easily! )
I feel racing is a true test of man and machine, at the limit of both's ability. I don't think it is something that should be compromised much. Yes I am sure that Shaun's brand new machines will be well prepped and reliable and an excellent way for a number of racers to do more than otherwise they could have. But, race bikes are stressed and pushed in exteme ways and race bikes should be well set up, otherwise you are a danger to yourself and others. We are not talking social cricket here, we are talking MOTORCYCLE RACING. Sticky tyres, sorted and good quality suspension and good brakes (pads, lines, etc) should not be an option they should be a compulsory requirement. If you can't afford that then sorry, do the occasional track day but don't try racing at a regular and frequent level until you can.

[ArcherWC]

are ohlins THAT good!? If only I had your talent Bob, that proper suspension would turn me into a high speed predictable racer. They just made me a little faster, didn't crash for a whole season and loved the extra feel and sensation that I received from them. While cranked over I could feel that my worn out Super Corsas were losing me a little grip and I would note that and respond as needed. You mean it shouldn't be predictable, I shouldn't have that extra "feel" and crash giving myself a more expensive crash repair bill plus potential injuries (I'm in my 40's and I get hurt more easily! )
I feel racing is a true test of man and machine, at the limit of both's ability. I don't think it is something that should be compromised much. Yes I am sure that Shaun's brand new machines will be well prepped and reliable and an excellent way for a number of racers to do more than otherwise they could have. But, race bikes are stressed and pushed in exteme ways and race bikes should be well set up, otherwise you are a danger to yourself and others. We are not talking social cricket here, we are talking MOTORCYCLE RACING. Sticky tyres, sorted and good quality suspension and good brakes (pads, lines, etc) should not be an option they should be a compulsory requirement. If you can't afford that then sorry, do the occasional track day but don't try racing at a regular and frequent level until you can.

Absolutly agree, standerdise the Engine, but DONT scrimp on the safety side of things (brakes, tyres, suspension, helmet, leathers, boots)

[scrivy]

I think some of us are missing the point of why we do what we do.
Not everyone wants to win a title. Not everyone wants to set lap records. Not everyone wants to win trophies.

People do it for all sorts of reasons.
To beat ya mates who reckon they're harder than you,
to show that being an old bastard - you still have it....,
to prove your machinery,
to win races,
to win titles,
to win trophies,
to HAVE FUN,
to have a STRESS RELIEF FROM WORK,
to score hot chicks......

As you can see, I like the bolded reasons. I don't give a flying .... about spending lots of money to achieve the same results. Just cause you do spend more money, doesn't mean you will get better results either.
If I can get a new lap record on a near canvas tyre, with an unknown tyre pressure, with a severely overheating engine spitting out water, on a $20,000 machine compared to the next machine I beat that was in excess of $150,000, then I know I've had great value for money and more fun than being in a room with 5 sets of twin nympho slappers!! (ok, maybe not that much then)

BUT... there are people out there that want the absolute best of everything. We shouldn't bag them I guess, but in the end, will they have anymore fun or outstandingly better results??

My 2c.....

[vtec]

As has been said before. Tyres. My most recent example of racing was a season and a bit on an R6 (as you may remember). At the end of the season I sold my ohlins for $1000. I am sure over the period of just that one season I saved more than $1000 on tyres alone.
Also as Sam Smith did sub 1 minutes around Pukekohe on an 05 R6 one could say that a well sorted 600 could be competitive at National level, in the right hands, for up to 5 seasons. The saving with the $2000 new ohlins over that kind of period would be much more.
Plus one could argue you are less likely to crash and therefore save money on repair bills

There's no way I would save anywhere near $1000 let alone $2000 on tyres over a couple of seasons because of suspension. Firstly I buy second hand tyres. I'm not rich, they cost about $200 per set. And I'll get 1 meeting per set (usually front 2 meetings rear 1 meeting), aftermarket suspension would not change that.

Secondly, it's just as easy to crash a bike with standard suspension as it is one with aftermarket suspension. It is NOT a safety factor. Crashing is totally up to how hard the rider decides to push his or her machinery. Push any equipment over the edge of its ability and it will CRASH.

I did have crashes on my CBR600 with Ohlins all round, and it was due to lock ups in the wet, powering out of a corner too much, or just too much lean angle and brakes. One of my crashes was due to pushing too hard on worn out tyres, but that's due to lack of money, and keeping suspension standard leaves more money for things like tyres.

Also, faster laptimes on a machine with expensive suspension doesn't mean that you are a better rider at all. Racing motorbikes is all about finding the limits of the equipment that you have. The quality of motorcycles and standard suspension today is far better than that which was considered world class 15 years ago. It is NOT a safety issue and should not be pushed as such. Racing at NZ level needs it's costs to be cut down, NZ is a POOR country, if you want people to race, you need to make it cost effective.

However if people are getting problems with suspension going to crap due to overheating or something, then a solution needs to be found, which may be as simple as changing the oil in the forks, or allowing aftermarket suspension, but I personally have never had an issue like that.

Finally I'm sure that standard suspension set up properly with a suitable tyre compound will last aswell as a bike with aftermarket suspension. You need to match the tyre compound to the suspension. Also, this brings in the issue of a control tyre which could help to decrease costs too and increase tyre longevity.

Production racing is the bees knees.

And yeah I remember racing with you Cleve, I passed you and then promptly crashed in the wet , think that was my second ride on a 600.

[wharfy]

I think some of us are missing the point of why we do what we do.
Not everyone wants to win a title. Not everyone wants to set lap records. Not everyone wants to win trophies.

My 2c.....

Yes indeed !!!
I'd LIKE to win trophies and set lap records but even with an unlimited budget that isn't going to happen, so I'll settle for having some fun, I got to spend some money on bling for my road bike (like a boy racer) and justified it by racing the bike.
The best value for money (if lowering lap times is the measure) was the money I spent on practice days.
In hind site it would have been more cost effective to buy a race bike and save the Hornet for riding to work/playing at the weekend. Clubman's is good for seeing if you want to race or not but something like pro twins or some other middleweight production class is needed for those of us that will not make the cut in superbikes/supersports.

I will probably end up doing that anyway (depending on how Shaun's plan pans out)

[svr]

Secondly, it's just as easy to crash a bike with standard suspension as it is one with aftermarket suspension. It is NOT a safety factor. Crashing is totally up to how hard the rider decides to push his or her machinery. Push any equipment over the edge of its ability and it will CRASH.

Also, faster laptimes on a machine with expensive suspension doesn't mean that you are a better rider at all. Racing motorbikes is all about finding the limits of the equipment that you have. The quality of motorcycles and standard suspension today is far better than that which was considered world class 15 years ago. It is NOT a safety issue and should not be pushed as such. Racing at NZ level needs it's costs to be cut down, NZ is a POOR country, if you want people to race, you need to make it cost effective.

Mate, you might be speaking the truth and being logical but you're wasting your time...

[svr]

I feel racing is a true test of man and machine, at the limit of both's ability. I don't think it is something that should be compromised much. ... Sticky tyres, sorted and good quality suspension and good brakes (pads, lines, etc) should not be an option they should be a compulsory requirement. If you can't afford that then sorry, do the occasional track day but don't try racing at a regular and frequent level until you can.

Someone needs to tell Agostini that he shouldn't have been out there!

[sidecar bob]

Sticky tyres, sorted and good quality suspension and good brakes (pads, lines, etc) should not be an option they should be a compulsory requirement. If you can't afford that then sorry, do the occasional track day but don't try racing at a regular and frequent level until you can.

That would be one of the most sport destroying views i have ever heard.
So it should be an exclusive "boys club" that can only be gained entry via a fat chequebook?
Im saddened by that, i came up through standard big cube road bikes that i could (barely) afford to race & i would be dissapointed if todays youth were denied the same path.
I dont disagree with the fact that the components you mention do vastly improve the machine & only an idiot would argue with the fact that Ohlins components are clearly the absolute pinnacle of suspension engineering, But for an entry level class? That can be for next years bike after the production race bike racer has learned to tell the difference in ajustments with a standard set up.

[Robert Taylor]

That would be one of the most sport destroying views i have ever heard.
So it should be an exclusive "boys club" that can only be gained entry via a fat chequebook?
Im saddened by that, i came up through standard big cube road bikes that i could (barely) afford to race & i would be dissapointed if todays youth were denied the same path.
I dont disagree with the fact that the components you mention do vastly improve the machine & only an idiot would argue with the fact that Ohlins components are clearly the absolute pinnacle of suspension engineering, But for an entry level class? That can be for next years bike after the production race bike racer has learned to tell the difference in ajustments with a standard set up.

The reality very often is that with the standard suspenders they are very often maxed inwards ( that in itself creating lots of undesirable hysterisis ) and the rider learns very little if anything about suspension setup.
Someone said we are a poor country, yes our incomes are not great but talking ourselves into it doesnt exactly help either. I know of many who werent exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and got to where they wanted to be through sheer hard work and sacrifice. I am not against entry level classes ( quite the opposite ) but excellence in machine specification and setup is not something that should be condemned, as a few have done in this and other threads.

[vtec]

The reality very often is that with the standard suspenders they are very often maxed inwards ( that in itself creating lots of undesirable hysterisis ) and the rider learns very little if anything about suspension setup.
Someone said we are a poor country, yes our incomes are not great but talking ourselves into it doesnt exactly help either. I know of many who werent exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and got to where they wanted to be through sheer hard work and sacrifice. I am not against entry level classes ( quite the opposite ) but excellence in machine specification and setup is not something that should be condemned, as a few have done in this and other threads.

Dude the biggest problem with the world at the moment is there's too many idiots who refuse to accept that they aren't rich. Now we are heading into a depression more than ever we are going to need to live within our means. In a country with limited money and limited productive economy there is only room for a small percentage of the population to be wealthy. The rest have to survive on what they can get. You have a niche business and good for you. I don't, and many young racers are pretty much kids on minimum wage. You can't earn good money until you are at least mid 20's by then it's too late for a motorcycle racing career. Keep costs down, or we will have a dearth of international motorcycle racers despite the talent in this country.

In my opinion fair racing doesn't need thousands to be blown on aftermarket suspension. Racing should be about the best rider triumphing, not the fattest chequebook.

There is definitely room for 1 or 2 modified road/race class in NZ. And learning to work with modifications is important once it gets really serious. But much more of the racing needs to be kept controlled to help identify talent, and keep costs down. If this doesn't happen, you will see the sport slide into a decline in the next few recessionary/depressionary years.

I've seen some serious quality riders come and go from the sport because of the costs, Ross King, Chris Sucich, and I'm sure others could name plenty more and I would like to include myself in that list hahaha, although cost was only one of the top 3 reasons why I packed it in.

[gav]

So anyway, what/where are these bikes then, Shaun?

[dwnundabkr]

2nd that, read all the posts now i am interested us old farts are getting older

[jrandom]

I am not against entry level classes

Define 'entry level', though. There's Clubmans, of course, but that's not a racing class per se.

If I want to go racing against other guys on the same spec machine with equipment that isn't old and fucked, what classes are available to me? Pro Twins/F3 (basically the same class now), superbikes, and 600s.

Anyone care to comment on what any of the above would be likely to cost me? I do know that more than one racing acquaintance who rides in F1 and/or F2 (and tries to win, etc) has quoted the cost of a full season incorporating the winter series and the Nats at over $30K.

And that's just silly. Why can't I walk into a dealership, buy a bike off the floor, and go racing competitively against others on the same equipment without spending money on anything but tyres and fuel?

Not everyone wants to win a title. Not everyone wants to set lap records. Not everyone wants to win trophies.

People do it for all sorts of reasons.
To beat ya mates who reckon they're harder than you,
to show that being an old bastard - you still have it....,
to HAVE FUN,
to have a STRESS RELIEF FROM WORK

Quoted for truth!