Lest we forget... New Zealand's shame

[Ixion]

As an opinion piece it recommends sterilising the underclass. But shows a misunderstanding in saying you expected to see evil psychopaths in the dock at Nias trial but instead saw pitiful inadequates. Hello - one and the same. Evil doesn't come with horns - it is simply a void where "goodness, values and ability to transcend ones own basic ego and selfishness" lies.
...

Ah. There you have hit the nail on the head (though maybe a bit off centre).

Society is quite well attuned to dealing with evil. And wickedness. And immorality.

But, the problem is, the people this thread is about are not evil. Or wicked. or even immoral.

They do not reach those heights,in the same sense that a flea that bites a person and infects him with bubonic plague would not be deemed evil or wicked or immoral.

They are simply totally lacking in the basic human capacity to relate to other creatures. Those who abused the little girl , Nia, did not so so through wickedness. That would require that they had a capacity to relate to the child to understand the nature of the torment they were inflicting, and chose, of volition, to continue. But everything I see says to me that they did not. They simply made no connection at all. Tormenting Nia amused them . They were incapable of questioning how it affected her. Incapable of any understanding of the nature of what they did. No more than the flea biting the man understands the death sentence it is inflicting.

Quite simply, in any social, intellectual, emotional sense, these people are not human. They are incapable of humanity (in the broad sense of that term). And the only solution for society is to remove them from society. Painlessly, by preference, and without hate or rancour. Simply as one of those things we must do. When we spray pesticides to kill fleas, mosquitos and other carriers of physical disease, we do not do so because of any emotional hatred of the insects that will be killed. When a policmen shoots a rabid dog , he usually has no hatred for the beast , perhaps even sadness and regret. But, their destruction is something that is necessary for the good of our species. So it is with the underclass here discussed. If our species is to grow and flourish, we must eradicate the not-quite-human portion that drags us down to their level.

It is not their fault. They cannot help it. We should not condemn them or seek to punish them, for they know not what they do. But, without hatred , rancour or revenge, they must be eradicated.

[candor]

Tailwagging time for psychopaths is torture time - lets charge with torture next time, manslaughter is lame

. Those who abused the little girl , Nia, did not so so through wickedness. That would require that they had a capacity to relate to the child to understand the nature of the torment they were inflicting, and chose, of volition, to continue. But everything I see says to me that they did not. They simply made no connection at all. Tormenting Nia amused them . They were incapable of questioning how it affected her..

Oh but they did relate. Just not in ways we easily comprehend. 99% odds they had a capacity to personally relate to the distress they could see their actions caused her as it is likely they had at some stage when little also been dehumanised / objectified. They know how the victim feels, just don't care as the whole experience of hurting others is highly gratifying and like fine wine for any psychopath worth their salt.

Orewa Kemp defended by claiming she suffered past abuse for one.
Their eyes saw her tears, ears heard screams. Every fool knows that signifies hurt - even if they can't empathise by sensing at the time the others inner pain. Presence or lack of distress is something intellectually obvious, if you have lived among bona fide humans who you'll surely have heard discussing "feelings".

Of their volition they chose to do things with an intended outcome of torment. It was active not passive or accidental (as with the flea).
And why? Not because the mere actions of putting someone in a clothesdryer or beating them in themselves were rewarding or thought funny. If so a blow up doll would have sufficed.
I guarantee you these proudly creative actions would have been continued until torment was apparent - not stopped before it was. And they knew the risk of causing death and that there are rules saying to do so is wrong.

It was the end result torment that amused - not the instrumental actions of themselves. And the choice of a vulnerable human target was conscious.
There is motive to tormenting and inflicting pain for psychopaths. It makes them feel omnipotent, it increases perceptions among observers that you are tough raising or maintaining your rank in the pecking order, and it can also give you a great and quite addictive adrenalin rush.
It can also give people a feeling of intimacy with another soul in the sense of - now you feel the kind of pain I survived or thats key to me you'll understand me in a way no one else can. They can feel understood for fleeting moments by creating a trauma bond.

Another dynamic is "you are now my punching bag and an extension of me where my emotions of hurt from childhood can be transferred, viewed, expressed bi-proxy (men don't cry) and curiously examined, perhaps laughed at with deep scorn if the victim cries... as that is not a part of me I can get in touch with alone, having mostly dead emotions (and sure wouldn't accept).

All these explanations are ones offered by psychopaths themselves and form the theoretical basis for working on "change" for that 1 in a million who want to change. But most just love themselves the way... life.... created them

There can also be an element of parental "care" if you think that by giving someone hard treatment you are toughening them up for a cruel world. Or narcissism - kids jobs are to make their "life givers" happy, end of story.

I do go along that their basic makeup gives them little option than to be revolting and go out being general pains - but to say they are not conscious their behaviours are well out of order (shown by concealment of abuse where it profits them etc etc ) is to belittle their human cc rating of brainpower. Which is a bit more than fleas spreading plague have.

The usual plea if you corner one is - I know its wrong and that I could choose other actions but this is me and I chose to go with my authentic nature. If I can't be natural about who I am (words like dominant or naturally aggressive may be used) I'm nothing. So intrinsic is psychopathy to identity. No different to blooded dogs for whom life gets a whole new focus and passion ie killing stock.

So - what is your eradication plan, and how does it help the under 7's?

[XxKiTtiExX]

I went to school with one of the Curtis brothers.. He always had the mentality of a 5 year old.. Then again most 5 year old know right from wrong, and he obviously doesn't.. For someone at 17 years old to still not be able to count to 10, is highly questionable... I still shudder to think I walked past him on a daily basis..

Sadly far to many beautiful children are wasted on people who don't deserve to have them in the first place.. And the ones who do are the ones who struggle trying to have them..

The strange way in which this world works..

[short-circuit]

So - what is your eradication plan, and how does it help the under 7's?

Bung them in ovens no doubt - or at least get someone else to do it (cause you guys have empathy - as opposed to them who don't have the capacity to develop it?).

Cue the big man response of volunteering without hesitation...

[PrincessBandit]

i haven't read the whole thread so apologise if I'm doubling up on what has already been said previously by others.
All of us at some time I'm sure have experienced incredible frustration with our children, or other people, where if we followed our natural instincts we'd lash out (physically, verbally i.e. read emotionally abusing them). What is the French term for "crime of passion" where in the heat of the moment a person commits an horrendous crime against someone else?
The cases mentioned in the op were not one-off heat of the moment instances, they were premeditated and carried out over time. What makes me so angry is the excuses that get trotted out as to why they do it. Almost invariably "I was abused when I was younger and am a victim of my circumstances, so can't be held responsible as I'm only living out what I know". The cycle CAN be broken and people CAN take personal responsibility for changing the circle in which they live. Before I get the (electronic) bash for saying that I am aware that it's not easy, or as simple as it sounds. For all those who have taken the extremely brave step of removing themselves from a violent home (women and kids and men) you are the ones who are making the difference by showing the next generation that you don't have to accept the culture of abuse.
All the law changes in the world wont make a scrap of difference to people who are lacking in any form of compassion, empathy, self control, or kindness. People whose only life philosophy revolves entirely around themselves, i.e. their own gratification and "needs" will always feel outside or above the laws that govern the rest of us.

[PrincessBandit]

What makes me so angry is the excuses that get trotted out as to why they do it. Almost invariably "I was abused when I was younger and am a victim of my circumstances, so can't be held responsible as I'm only living out what I know".

Actually there is one thing that makes me even angrier, that this excuse is trotted out by defense lawyers. How do these people sleep at night knowing they have successfully got a defendant off, or at least a heavily reduced sentence, even knowing they're actually guilty as charged?

[Number One]

If our species is to grow and flourish, we must eradicate the not-quite-human portion that drags us down to their level.
But, without hatred , rancour or revenge, they must be eradicated.

Agree and accept your points - Eradication IS the answer.

As for the 'doing it without rancour, revenge' etc...guess I'm just not that evolved myself :shrug:

[short-circuit]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

[ghost]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

Selective genocide before the event.

[Ixion]

Bung them in ovens no doubt - or at least get someone else to do it (cause you guys have empathy - as opposed to them who don't have the capacity to develop it?).

Cue the big man response of volunteering without hesitation...

Gas is quick and simple. More pleasant would be if some other country could be persuaded to take them, though I fear that is unlikely.

Every member of society has an obligation (it goes along with being admitted to society) to use what capacity they have to, at the least, not be a negative factor to that society.

Some, the disabled, the young , the old may not (now) be able to make much if any contribution. They can at least not be a negative contribution. Please note carefully, I am not talking here about a monetary or economic contrbiution. Present day society is wealthy enough for that not to be a priority. I am talking about a contribution toward making that society a decent one, one where people do not live in fear. One where cases like those posited here do not hapen.

Some (a distressing large number) of our present society fail in this test. It is an objective test , simply "Is our society better off or worse off for having you in it, either because of what you are now, or what you were when younger, or what you may be when older?" If the answer is "worse off", then the people concerned , collectively and individually, must be given an opportunity (and guidance) to amend their ways.

If they will not, through perverse obstinacy, or cannot , through psychopathy or whatever, then society must remove them. Send them away (the ancient Greeks were onto this - ostracism) , or eliminate them.

Not a pleasant idea, and certainly not a pleasant task. But one that needs to be undertaken if that society is not to spiral slowly but steadily down into barbarism.

Children under seven are usually reckoned young enough to be rehabilitated. Those of advanced age may present no present risk.

Watch a cat "playing" with a mouse. Teasing it, tormenting it. For the cat is "just a bit of fun". For themouse , it is pain torment and death. The cat probably realises that the mouse is terrified and in pain (they are not stupid animals), but it does not care. It cares only for itself and its own gratification. It doesn't actually want the mouse to die (because the dead mouse is no fun). But it will shrug its feline shoulders when it does , and go look for another one.

If we care about the fate of the mouse (and here, substitute child for mouse), we must eliminate the cat. There is no other way. No amount of tree huggy compassion for the poor misunderstood cat will help the mouse. Eliminate the cat . Not because we hate the cat or want to punish it. But simply because it is the only way to save the mouse.

[imdying]

Ahhhh cats, reputedly the only other species to kill for pleasure. I believe it too, as you say, ever seen one with a mouse?

[candor]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

OK fine. In vitro fertilisation births only for dv8 couples intending to pick up more DPB before Xmas, and use the new genetic engineering techniques to ensure they get the best designer babies money can buy. Then prevent drug use for 9 mths so the baby is not irritable enough to drive them batty. Is this the kind of social engineering that would better match your values?

[Genestho]

Nigel Latta had an interesting theory which was mentioned in one of his books, a theory not embraced by Plunket mums!

The Psychopath Screen (Dont know the actual name sorry) to be introduced at pre-schools for children showing potential pyschopathic behaviour.
Early assesment of the behaviour and early intervention etc, could prevent or derail antisocial or psychopathic behaviour in the future.

Going on the theory that most of our high profile killers showed violent or psychopathic behavior at a very young age.

Just out of interest - I talked to my local daycare and they agreed for some of the kids that have a certain non empathetic/remorsefull and violent behavior on a regular basis(not many over a period of say 5 years in their day care) its a good theory..
Being a Mum I read the Littlies, Treasures Mags etc, and Mums comments are not for this theory, as they feel it invasive, I think it needs to be recognised that every kid can be naughty and mischevious, especially when tired..psychopathic behavior is very different.

Good book too, written by a very smart guy..Into the Darklands II

[fire eyes]

Tragedy at all levels, ending cycle of violence?

Exposure, Education & Intervention, the abuser usually creates an environment of seclusion, fear and isolation.

My father was a horrendously violent man.

One night when Mum was being smashed up in the kitchen with fists, pans, chair, Mums friend Julie happened to be there and took my father on, the comparison was very David & Goliath, Julie told him no more, Mums friend is very lucky she got out alive and even to this day I am not sure why he never attacked her, its like something clicked in his head, things drastically changed from this moment, it was slow but the exposure of the behavior had happened. Yes we had heaps of family around but they were always kept at a distance as well, also fear of retaliation from Dad ment it took an outsider to intervene.

Insight into Dads history, taken at birth from a reletive, first born son, which was the norm from where we come from, he was raised by these people until 15 when both adopted parents died, sent back to violent alcohol fuelled birth family, torn apart from seperation of the only family he had known, into an environment that used alcohol to surpress feelings, progressed into controlling family through violence, unable to find another way to cope, didnt know any other mechanisms for coping, and when they did become avilable was considerably entrenched in his behavior, yes we can choose change takes a little longer for someone who thinks its normality.

Solutions in my eyes, Exposure, Education & Intervention .. nice ideal illimenating abusers, reality is a little different, violence needs to be stopped in its tracks, exposure of the behavior starts the process.

My heart goes out to all those innocent little ones who wait for intervention and the ones who endured the hopelessness and never made it out alive

[devnull]

Can anyone come up with something other than selective genocide (after the event)?

Very little discussion or acknowledgement of prevalence and types of child abuse through out all societies and across time. Almost no reflection here on causal factors (and how we may contribute to these conditions). Not much about prevention.

Pointless thread from where I'm sitting

Been discussed many times before...

Try searching threads about Bradford's anti-smacking bill - the key risk indicators, as identified in multiple international studies, are listed there.

The data has been studiously ignored by the bleeding heart brigade that has run this country for the last 9 years because to address the root of the problem would be to alienate their voter base...