Gaza

[SARGE]

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid

But lets get one thing straight:

Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers.

Another thing, this is not a war and certainly not a war of opposing armies. This is one of the poorest and opressed civilian populations on earth resisting the fourth largest military power in the world.

Israel have done everything within their power to destroy any and all Palestinian leadership be it democratically elected or not, creating a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists. The resulting carnage justifies their actions and enables their ultimate aim of destryoing any hope of a separate Palestinian state.

ok..you do make some valid points..


but...

yes.. i would stand and fight if NZ were attacked .. (not because i love NZ or anything .. just cuz i dig a good scrap..)

one thing i would NOT do is target civillian populations like the Hamas fighters seems to love doing with the rockets into Isreal..

another thing .. i would try and make sure that i was as far away from civilian centers as possible ( targeting supply lines , C&C centers, etc).. i wouldnt hide in a church, school or other civilian structure hoping that the invaders wouldnt attack it for fear of collateral damage.

i have no fear of dying, as long as i can go out laughing.. been there a few times ( i have a heart-needle scar to prove it ... no i didnt see no stinkin light)

Hamas, Hezbolla, Al Queda, and all thier ilk are cowards.. plain and simple .. the rules of war, Geneva conventions and international law mean jack shit to them..



the thing that cracks me up in NZ is the freaks and hippies that marched down Queen Street last week, straight to the US Consulate and proceeded to throw thier shoes and blame the US for NOT getting involved..

make up your mind .. you want us in or out??

im gonna go throw a few shoes at the Green Party HQ in Kingsland this weekend .. anyone up for a short ride and a bit of free press?

[Jantar]

...... Riiiiiiight, and the "American-Jewish Co-operative Enterprise" (I shit you not) who run that site are completely unbiased....Tui ad if ever there was one......

Ok. so you believe that link to biassed? How about Wikipedia then:

Jews were present in Gaza from antiquity until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza. After that the British prohibited Jews from living in the area, though some Jews returned and, in 1946, re-established kibbutz Kfar Darom in central Gaza which had been destroyed in the 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine.[7]

British rule of Palestine ended with the expiration of the British Mandate and the Israeli Declaration of Independence on May 14, 1948. ....... in May 1948, the Egyptian army invaded the area from the south, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[5]

So lets get this straight. Jews lived there from antiquity. They were forced out in 1929, but some returned. Egypt attacked and took over gaza following the Israeli declaration of independence. Israel took it back in the six days way of 1967. Now Hamas are using Gaza to fire rockets indiscriminatly into Isreal, but because the rockets are being fired from civilian areas, Isreal is supposed to just say to Hamas "That's OK, you just go and kill as many of our civilians as you like, and we won't do anything about it"? I know which one is the bigger Tui.

And despite your bleating on about the message and the messenger, you still haven't explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[enigma51]

the thing that cracks me up in NZ is the freaks and hippies that marched down Queen Street last week, straight to the US Consulate and proceeded to throw thier shoes and blame the US for NOT getting involved..

make up your mind .. you want us in or out??

I also laughed at that

The problem with this whole thing is that the media is following what ever will make the best story. In thins case hamas is freely giving the media all the propaganda they want and israel is not. If Israel did you would see children being carried to hospital cause they got injured by the random bombs being shot into israel from hamas

[enigma51]

Ok. so you believe that link to biassed? How about Wikipedia then:

So lets get this straight. Jews lived there from antiquity. They were forced out in 1929, but some returned. Egypt attacked and took over gaza following the Israeli declaration of independence. Israel took it back in the six days way of 1967. Now Hamas are using Gaza to fire rockets indiscriminatly into Isreal, but because the rockets are being fired from civilian areas, Isreal is supposed to just say to Hamas "That's OK, you just go and kill as many of our civilians as you like, and we won't do anything about it"? I know which one is the bigger Tui.

If take it further back and read the big book the jews was living in the desert for 40 years with out a home. So what now?

[Jantar]

..... So what now?

Now? The Israelis built a wall around Gaza and told the Palestinians that if they wanted peace without Israeli interference then they could have it. They just had to live their own lives and not attack Israel. Instead Hamas decided they didn't want peace, and continued to fire rockets into Israel.

What now? They are getting what they asked for.

And still noone has explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[marty]

There is a documented case of a hellfire hitting a Palestinian Ambulance.
This means either the missile is not so accurate or the IDF is targeting Ambulances, what do you reckon?

Notwithstanding that I was using the hellfire as an example of indiscriminate IDF fire. How else do you explain the 200+ dead children in the past week or so?

the missile in the ambulance you are talking about is a documented fraud.

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

[enigma51]

And still noone has explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

Still nothing

[Oscar]

the missile in the ambulance you are talking about is a documented fraud.

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

Not 1996, 1984 - read "the Great War for Civilisation" By Robert Fisk

It may amaze you to learn that the IDF plays the media game...

After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.

[enigma51]

Not 1996, 1984 - read "the Great War for Civilisation" By Robert Fisk

It may amaze you to learn that the IDF plays the media game...

Its called politics they all play the media game ............

[Oscar]

Its called politics they all play the media game ............

Fisk's book is worth the effort.

[Hitcher]

Fisk's book is worth the effort.

Indeed it is. But Mr Fisk isn't as impartial as the epithet "journalist" may lead some people to believe.

[Maki]

Ok, ok.... Before you say anything more about the Gaza conflict let me lay down some rules, and shame on anyone, including myself who has not followed them!

Gaza War (and other wars)

Media Rules of Engagement

[translated from original Spanish source]

NOTE the twelve golden and infallible truths that the media are obligated to adopt:

1. In the Middle East, the Arabs always attack first and Israel always defends itself. This defense is called 'retaliation'.
2. Neither Arabs, Palestinians nor Lebanese have the right to kill civilians. This is 'terrorism'.
3. Israel has the right to kill civilians. This is called 'legitimate defense'.
4. When Israel massively kills civilians, the Western Powers ask to her do it with courtesy or politeness. This is called 'reaction of the international community'.
5. Neither Palestinians nor Lebanese have the right to capture Israeli soldiers inside military installations with sentry and combat positions. This has to be called 'kidnapping of defenceless civilians'.
6. Israel has the right to kidnap as many Palestinians or Lebanese as they wish and at any time or place. Their present figures are about 10,000 imprisoned, 300 of whom are children and one thousand women. They do not need any evidence about their culpability. Israel has the right to detain such kidnapped prisoners indefinitely, even if they are people democratically elected by Palestinians. This is called 'imprisonment of terrorists'.
7. Whenever the word 'Hizbollah' is mentioned, it is compulsory to add in the same phrase 'supported and financed by Syria and Iran'.
8. When 'Israel' is mentioned it is absolutely forbidden to add 'supported and financed by the United States' This could give the impression that the conflict is uneven and that Israel's existence of is not after all at risk.
9. In any statement about Israel, any mention of the following phrases is to be avoided: 'occupied territories', 'UN resolutions', 'Human Rights violations' or 'Geneva Convention'.
10. Palestinians, as well as Lebanese, always are 'cowards' hiding behind a civil population that dislike them. If they sleep in military accommodation with their families, this has a name: 'cowardice'. Israel is entitled to annihilate with bombs and missiles such barracks where they sleep. This is to be called a 'surgical, high-precision action'.
11. Israelis speak English, French, Spanish or Portuguese better than the Arabs. That is why they deserve to be interviewed more frequently and have better opportunities to explain to the audience at large the above rules, from 1 to 10. This is called 'media neutrality'.
12. Any person in disagreement with the above rules is to be branded a "highly dangerous anti-Semitic terrorist'

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/09/01/media_rules.html

[davereid]

If you had of paid attention earlier, you would have noticed that I don't support either side....My contention is that the IDF are being dumb by trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. They are playing right into the broader HAMAS / Al Queda / {insert Muslim terror group here} long term stratergy.

You might not support one side over the other, but I do.

May Allah and Mohammed kiss the soles of the shoes of Israels prostitutes...

7 million people in Israel.

Invaded by 200 million arabs... in:

1948 Invaded by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - who lost.

1949-1950 Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.

1950-1956 continuous war with Egyptian fedayeen from Gaza strip

1948-1952 In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.

1956, Egypt, in an act of war, closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, in contravention of the Constantinople Convention. Israel responded on October 29, 1956, by invading the Sinai Peninsula with British and French support. During the Suez Canal Crisis, Israel captured the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula.

1967, Egypt deployed 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula. It again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, returning the region to the way it was in 1956 when Israel was blockaded.

1967, Jordan entered into the mutual defense pact between Egypt and Syria intending to destroy Israel. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) destroyed most of the surprised Egyptian Air Force, then turned east to pulverize the Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Unsurprisingly, given history, Israel didnt give them back this time.

1967, Arab leaders met in Khartoum in response to the war, to discuss the Arab position toward Israel. They reached consensus that there should be:
No recognition of the State of Israel.
No peace with Israel.
No negotiations with Israel.

1969, Egypt initiated the War of Attrition, with the goal of exhausting Israel into surrendering the Sinai Peninsula.

1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, initially overwhelming the surprised Israeli military. When Israel had turned the tide of war, the USSR threatened military intervention. The United States, wary of nuclear war, secured a ceasefire on October 25

After this date, Israel stopped waiting to be attacked.

1981, Israel successfully attacked and destroyed newly built Iraqi nuclear facilities.

1981,Iraq fired 39 missiles into Israel, in the hopes of uniting the Arab world. At the behest of the United States, Israel did not respond to this attack in order to prevent a greater outbreak of war.

The bad guys here all wear hankies on their heads, love Allah and Mohammed, want to mutilate your little girls and use violence to make you appreciate their god.

[SARGE]

Does that mean if yer dead body turned out to be innocent, they'd get a pardon from the IDF?
In the meantime the IDF have killed in excess of 200 children to achieve their mission.

ok.. lets compare the tactics of Hamas with those of the Al Queda groups in Iraq..

July 13 2005 -A suicide bomber kills thirty-four Iraqi boys and one US soldier in Baghdad. The boys were scooping up candy thrown from an American Humvee

Orlando E. Gonzalez, 21, of New Freedom, Pa.; private first class, Army. Gonzalez was among four soldiers killed March 25 when a suicide bomber on a scooter detonated an explosive near them after the paratroopers left their Humvee to hand out candy to a group of children in Baqubah, north of Baghdad. He was assigned to the 5th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division at Ft. Bragg, N.C.

BAGHDAD - Police said Wednesday that children were used in a weekend car bombing in which the driver gained permission to park in a busy shopping area after he pointed out that he was leaving his children in the back seat.

The account appeared to confirm one given Tuesday by a U.S. general. He said children were used in a Sunday bombing in northern Baghdad and labeled it a brutal new tactic put to use by insurgents to battle a 5-week-old security crackdown in the capital.

Maj. Gen. Michael Barbero, deputy director for regional operations on the Joint Staff, said the vehicle used in the attack was waved through a U.S. military checkpoint because two children were visible in the back seat. He said it was the first reported use of children in a car bombing in Baghdad.

life is cheap to these pricks .. women , children, mentally handicapped, dogs, cats, flying squirrels..

i am pretty sure that Hamas knows EXACTLY what will happen and they drag the BBC, CNN and Al Jezera around by the nose rings to make the hippies freak out

[Maki]

Interesting post, Sarge... You got to wonder though, why were they handing out candies? Hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq due to lack of food and medicines. Why did the soldiers not hand out those necessities?

I got to tell you that if my family dies of hunger and lack of medical care due to an occupational force in my country, then I will do whatever it takes to retaliate.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Life is tough, especially when you are stupid.