Gaza

[SARGE]

Interesting post, Sarge... You got to wonder though, why were they handing out candies? Hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq due to lack of food and medicines. Why did the soldiers not hand out those necessities?

I got to tell you that if my family dies of hunger and lack of medical care due to an occupational force in my country, then I will do whatever it takes to retaliate.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Life is tough, especially when you are stupid.

look it up mate.. the US operates med centers that treat civilians.. pass out food and water.. are actively involved in rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure.. we build hospitals.. schools..farms.. and are training Iraqi security forces and police to defend their homeland against insurgents..

how fucking much do you want??

have you ever actually BEEN to the US??.. even MET a real American?

or is it easier and cheaper to follow the sheeple and bitch on the interdweeb about something you know jack shit about?


im happy to sit down and have 10 or 15 beers with ya whenever man..yea.. im a right wing neo-con nutcase.. but im a decent fucker who would give someone in genuine need the shirt off my back

and i HAVE met a real member of Hezbolla..several actually..(ok..maybe not 'had a conversation with'.. but you can find out more about a man when you look him in the eye from 500 meters through a rifle scope than you can from having a beer with him.)

[SARGE]

Have you ever been in that situation?

Again ........ it easy to stand on this side of the fence and point.

Are you going to give the guy that wants to kill your family and friends medicine or food? Are you going to give his family medicine or food knowing that there is very good chance that they feel just as much hate for you?

when i was in Lebanon.. we regularly handed out lollies to kids.. winning hearts and minds..if you can change one persons perception.. you are on your way to stopping a war

[Winston001]

The IDF Commander has stated that this is a once in a generation opportunity to wipe out Hamas. Each side would kill the other given the opportunity (and at the moment the IDF is the only one with the means).

Remember, this is a Western backed military leader saying he wants to wipe a democratically elected government - what does that say to the rest of the region? We ant Democracy for you, but only on our terms?

At first glance this seems a serious attack on democracy. If the people of Gaza elect Hamas to government, that should be respected.

However Hamas was already well-known for terrorism (or freedom-fighting) before the election. They call their Israeli neighbours the enemy and act accordingly. Elections aren't always rational decisions of a populace. Hamas was supported because the Palestinians felt powerless and thought an aggressive government might get some results. The voters had no conception of how their decision would look to the rest of the world.

Germany elected the Nazi Party into power. The average German had no conception of where that would lead.

[Swoop]

TV news last night.

Video footage of a heavy machinegun located in a mosque...

"How surprising".

[MisterD]

...elect Hamas to government...

At least the IRA had the decency to invent another name and pretend that the IRA and Sinn Fein were separate organisations...

[dipshit]

Personally, having the attention span of a newt, these days, and the compassion of Great White, I don't give a damn any more if they slaughter each other, yeah, down to the 10th generation!

Me too. All the Jews, Muslims and Christians (Americans) can all go and kill each other for all I care.

[Oscar]

At first glance this seems a serious attack on democracy. If the people of Gaza elect Hamas to government, that should be respected.

However Hamas was already well-known for terrorism (or freedom-fighting) before the election. They call their Israeli neighbours the enemy and act accordingly. Elections aren't always rational decisions of a populace. Hamas was supported because the Palestinians felt powerless and thought an aggressive government might get some results. The voters had no conception of how their decision would look to the rest of the world.

Germany elected the Nazi Party into power. The average German had no conception of where that would lead.

So what are you saying?
Only smart people should vote?
Sounds good to me...

[Skyryder]

Words fail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-DYB6YgU8



Skyryder

[Winston001]

So what are you saying?
Only smart people should vote?
Sounds good to me...

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:

• Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
• Fatah or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
• Hamas or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
• Palestine Democratic Union (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
• Palestine Forum launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri, 73
• Palestinian National Initiative (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
• Palestinian People's Party (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
• Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
• Al-Mustaqbal or The Future
• Third Way (centrist)
• Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (left-wing)

[Oscar]

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:

• Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
• Fatah or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
• Hamas or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
• Palestine Democratic Union (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
• Palestine Forum launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri, 73
• Palestinian National Initiative (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
• Palestinian People's Party (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
• Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
• Al-Mustaqbal or The Future
• Third Way (centrist)
• Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (left-wing)

Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

I cannot believe that any group of people are fundamentally evil - these people have been shit upon for three generations, by their own "leaders", by their allies like Jordan and Egypt, by the west and by the Israelis. They have been subject to economic and physical blockade (have you seen the fuck off big wall around the West Bank?) and used as political pawns, firstly in the Cold War and now on the War on Terror.

[Winston001]

Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

I cannot believe that any group of people are fundamentally evil - these people have been shit upon for three generations, by their own "leaders", by their allies like Jordan and Egypt, by the west and by the Israelis. They have been subject to economic and physical blockade (have you seen the fuck off big wall around the West Bank?) and used as political pawns, firstly in the Cold War and now on the War on Terror.

No argument about that. Desperation. I've always thought the wall was a mistake too even if it worked in the short-term.

I'm trying to think of anywhere in the world where such a situation has been resolved. No with the Basques, no with the Tamil Tigers, maybe with Northern Ireland, perhaps with the Balkans - but probably not.

So long as the cultural memory of the Palestinians is that they are victims and the Israelis should be killed, this conflict will continue.

We should recognise that not all Palestinians feel this way, and certainly not all Israelis. There are moderates on both sides and in fact in Israel, there is plenty of open debate in support of the Palestinians.

[Street Gerbil]

Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

They were not desperate, just upset and misguided. They were very upset at Fatah for being essentially a criminal organization and running the Autonomy as its personal fiefdom. They were quite pissed at the fact that they lived in shit and Arafat's cronies were filthy rich, that any government service required a bribe, and not in the least that it was safer to marry ugly girls because pretty ones were routinely kidnapped and raped by the Fatah men and the "police" (i.e. Fatah men) would not do squat about it. With Hamas promises to end the corruption and punish the corrupted officials (which they eventually did with the bone-chilling efficiency that makes Don Corleone look like Mother Theresa in comparison, given that by their standards having your kneecaps shot or drilled through is considered relatively light and humane punishment) it seemed like a simple choice. Unfortunately the most dangerous lie is truth but not the whole truth. A vast majority voted for Hamas to punish corrupt and inept Fatah, rather than because they wanted to end up being cannon fodder for Islamic militant ambitions. A few folks I chatted with, kept telling the same old "had we known...". What they did not realize is that once the thugs are in power, there is no going back. Russians made the same mistake with Putin.

[SARGE]

Me too. All the Jews, Muslims and Christians (Americans) can all go and kill each other for all I care.

oh look.. another crackhead for the ignore list


348 and counting

[SARGE]

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:

• Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
• Fatah or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
• Hamas or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
• Palestine Democratic Union (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
• Palestine Forum launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri, 73
• Palestinian National Initiative (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
• Palestinian People's Party (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
• Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
• Al-Mustaqbal or The Future
• Third Way (centrist)
• Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (left-wing)

[Wally Simmonds]

..........

Yep, it's a pity these groups aren't civilised like Western political parties isn't it.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I can't see how this sort of thing can continue. Is it much of a stretch of the imagination to wonder what would happen to the region if American military aid were to dry up due to severe economic conditions?

I've always been of the opinion that Israel should be the bigger man in this - given the stats on those 'rockets' actually hitting anything I would bet the costs of this sort of military operation would be better diverted into developing defensive weapons that would make the rockets extremely unlikely to make it over. Not to mention they'd make a killing onselling the tech to everyone else.

It's clear that the Palestinian leadership are never going to bow out of this one. The mindset is too ingrained..so I'd hope that people that supposedly have a better education and a better chance of living a decent life would make more empathetic decisions other than 'Crush the terrorist scum' every 5 or so years. It doesn't fucking work, guys.