Paper roads

[monchopper]

See thats were we might disagree a just little bit (read a lot). The long term damage this does to the sport is not worth the 3 hours of fun. Take the other approach of getting into the good books of a few land owners and become known as a responsible bunch and you'll never know how many gates may be opened for you!

Cheers R

What long term damage? I agree that the responsible biker approach is the only way when you talking about private tracks on private property. Which is exactly what I did to organise this . 16 private farms we went over and all the farmers where great about it, some took convincing but after explaining what we were doing etc they were OK.

I'm talking about paper roads (formed, unformed, partially formed.......) that goes through a farmers property and he tells you to piss off, no reason (lambing etc), just piss off (There is no getting into some of these guys good books). You're saying just except it and move on, I'm saying I won't accept it. In most cases I've found the farmer knows there's a paper road but doesn't accept that's there's vehicluar rights.
But I can't accept challenging a farmer causes long term damage to the sport. Just lying down and playing dead won't get us anywhere either.

I believe some negotiation needs to take place and sometimes it needs to be hardball.

[monchopper]

You are going to need a survey grade GPS for that - got a spare $75k?

You've not read this as I intended. Maybe I should've concentrated in England classes when they taught sentence construction.

"if you don't know with 100% certainty with a GPS (which you don't) then sure as shit no one else will" Meaning you don't know but neither will anyone else (except those who have accurate enough equipment, which I believe is $75k).

A GPS augmentation system like they have in Europe (EGNOS) and the US (WAAS) would help with accuracy and could in most cases keep you within the road reserve if you were walking, but not even these 'survey grade' GPS's you speak of would be much use at 40 km/h.

[Woodman]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.

[cooneyr]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.

Sounds like a bloody good idea and I'd love to do it. I'd quite my job and do it pro bono if somebody want's to sponsor me a bike, some gas money and a tent. Cheap as chips really

Cheers R

[Winston001]

to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.

Cheers R

Unfortunately you are right. There could be a dozen titles involved or deposited plans all of which need to be identified and searched. There are land searching businesses who can do this for you at a price. Probably $200.

There is also cadastral software such as Quickmap or Terraview which you can buy. I think the minimum cost is about $350. Best option is to find someone with the software and ask them to have a look. I have an old version of Quickmap but can't open it cos its expired. Updating one of these days and happy to help.

[monchopper]

isn't there an organisation in the uk that organise walks over paper roads Roman roads etc just to make them used and people aware they exist and to make certain they don't get lost in time??
Maybe there should be a similar thing here with paper roads and adv bikes.

There are a few but the ones with the most voice are the ones who condone the use of motor vehicles on the currently legal tracks. (Walking/Rambling groups)

One of the problems is in the UK they took all the RUUPs (road used as public path) whos legal status was flowery, (some had legal vehicle status some didn't, with no way of telling) adventure bikers (Greenlaners) took these tracks as there rightful terrain. The countryside act (not long ago 2-3 years) and made all of the RUUPS a regstricted byway (which made them good for anything non-motorised vehicles).

Also because the In NZ legal system they never get lost in time. Surveys taken along time ago still have a degree of relevance today, there is no master update. Property cases can drag on for ages cos of it.

But you're right, we should be doing something. Hence this post....

[bigfish]

The link contained in this post, on a similar subject , may be of utility and interest

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

[Waihou Thumper]

Has Any one done this recently?. I went from Putaruru end yesterday onto Leslie Rd. Cool road but gate 500 metres past Galaxie Rd was Locked.Is it always Locked?.Went down Galaxie instead to main Mamaku Rd. Crossed main Rd and carried on. Galaxie gate was open so I followed right thru to McClarens Falls Road. I enjoyed it so much that I turned around and went back the same way. A top way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

Cal me, I would be interested...!
Mum and Dad used to live at the end of Mclarens Falls road....
I always thought you could ride through the forest somehow?
Can you manage a good loop around that area?

Mclaren through Omanawa etc..?
I asked about the road through the 4x4 place at Mamaku, is that the same road? Cecil Rd?

[bigfish]

Cal me, I would be interested...!
Mum and Dad used to live at the end of Mclarens Falls road....
I always thought you could ride through the forest somehow?
Can you manage a good loop around that area?

Mclaren through Omanawa etc..?
I asked about the road through the 4x4 place at Mamaku, is that the same road? Cecil Rd?

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

[Waihou Thumper]

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

I guess it might pay to go further afield then....Mind you, as I went through to Murapara the other day, the gates in the forest were unlocked too. Imagine doing a HUGE loop around the Kaimanawa forest through Galatea etc...If the gate ends up being locked I am sure you could go around but I wouldn't want to tresspass deliberately...
When you explore NZ, it is a huge place....Imagine how the Americans get on in their land and having Canada too....

[warewolf]

Indiscriminate lockouts are frequently counter-productive. It keeps the good people away, but not the problematic anti-social morons. "No access" is not equivalent to "good management". Sometimes civil disobedience (or in the case of paper roads, a facsimile thereof) is appropriate.

[Ixion]

It appears to be Cecil Rd beyond gate at Galaxie cross roads.I thought it was meant to be public paper rd with unlocked gate?. Road at McClarens end wanders thru a large conversion dairy farm before it reaches the native.Not sure of the legalities of it so just idled thru nice and quietly.Me and Agricon went thru from McClarens end last year and got to far end and found Mamaku end gate locked.Had to back track to Kaimai end.

Cecil Road is not just a paper road , it is a full public road. The bastards are trying it on again. BRONZ will send them a filthy missive pointing out that giving the finger to the Ombudsman is a serious offence. Were there any signs ? Or just a padlock ?

[bigfish]

Cecil Road is not just a paper road , it is a full public road. The bastards are trying it on again. BRONZ will send them a filthy missive pointing out that giving the finger to the Ombudsman is a serious offence. Were there any signs ? Or just a padlock ?

Just a padlock. No signs.

[Skinny_Birdman]

A further point to note is that there is a difference between an unformed legal road and simply as parcel of land that looks like a road but is in fact a reserve or has some other legal status. Case in point the Lyttleton side of the bridal path is not longer a road even though the parcel looks like one The status was changed some time in the 1990's and there was attempts to change the CCC side at the same time, luckily it hasn't changed. The only sure way you can find out if a parcel of land is actually a a road is by obtaining a title (if one exists) or legal description from LINZ. No idea what it costs to do this but it wont be fast or cheep.

Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

A GPS augmentation system like they have in Europe (EGNOS) and the US (WAAS) would help with accuracy and could in most cases keep you within the road reserve if you were walking, but not even these 'survey grade' GPS's you speak of would be much use at 40 km/h.

I hate to be a pedant, but a GPS augmentation system would help enable you to establish your own position accurately, but wouldn't remove the massive plotting errors in the cadastral databases. All of these products are sourced at some point from LINZ's LandOnline system, which has HUGE errors in it, particularly in rural areas where there haven't been any surveys for a long time, which are likely places to find paper roads (because when Joe Farmer gets his land surveyed, he may also ask the surveyor to investigate the stopping of any paper roads, at the same time).
Also, our survey grade GPS, which is now 2 generations old, has no trouble maintaining lock at 40km/h, provided you don't drive under too many trees. The company I used to work for tested the same system and found it stayed locked up to about 60km/h.

An interesting discussion, this....

[monchopper]

Hear hear! In the course of my work I frequently come across parcels of stopped road that are now in private ownership, and if you don't have access to Terraview etc you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.



I hate to be a pedant, but a GPS augmentation system would help enable you to establish your own position accurately, but wouldn't remove the massive plotting errors in the cadastral databases. All of these products are sourced at some point from LINZ's LandOnline system, which has HUGE errors in it, particularly in rural areas where there haven't been any surveys for a long time, which are likely places to find paper roads (because when Joe Farmer gets his land surveyed, he may also ask the surveyor to investigate the stopping of any paper roads, at the same time).
Also, our survey grade GPS, which is now 2 generations old, has no trouble maintaining lock at 40km/h, provided you don't drive under too many trees. The company I used to work for tested the same system and found it stayed locked up to about 60km/h.

An interesting discussion, this....

Very interesting. The topic has so many parts to it, some opinion, some fact.

Regarding the 40 km/h. I was referring to ones ability to read a GPS, follow the mapped line and keep upright while riding the bike on rough terrain, not the GPS's ability to keep a lock!!!