F3 Rules, what ya all reckon?

[FROSTY:Me]

That reminds me--My last (long) e mail came back to me having qued too long at H$%$%$ --any Idea what happened Shaun??

Shaun -re --This bit
Ok what about, For the Nationals F3 Class, we go with Frosty's 75hp cap, ( Logistics of how to police to be soughted later) and allow anything you want to do to your chassis simple!

For Club Scene racing ( Because that is where you start with the basics and then move on to the Nats) We do not allow Modified twins in to the F3 class, ( Key word Modified) Std can still race.

We could combine 400's Std SV's and 125's together, to make the focus of this being the learning grade at the club champs, as well as the low cost class at the club scene.

Modified Twins race in F2, I Know I know, THATS NOT FARE, THEY HAVE 600.s in there, well wippy shit, look at it this way

No mate I disagree --F3 is F3 is F3 --by putting a 75 hp cap on it what happens is a guy on a well set up bike be it an RGV,ZXR400 or a SV650 is going to be competative on all but maybee pukihole. The point is to limit the Horsepower advantage of the twins.
I feel the rule should be an accross the board thing at club or national level
Keeping in mind really its only the Ducs,sv's and the er6 that are with mods pumping out more than 80hp.so most people at club level dont have to bother with dynoing.
A simple difference I feel should be that at NATIONAL level you seal your motor/induction system at dyno run time-75 hp not one bit more.
At CLUB level you use the protest system. So -say FROSTY fronts on his 90hp sv and is blitzing the feild -KK fronts with his protest money and if my bike is over HP-I loose all series points -simple really
The other thing is -whatever the rule is it needs to be fixed in stone for 3 years.
Im pushing a rule that in essence will make my bike illegal to race in F3
Im fucked if im gonna build a new motor that complies only to have the rules change after a year.

[FROSTY:Me]

copy of letter sent to MNZ
Throw stones if you like guys
Hiya Paul.

I’ve been thinking long and hard about this one

Ive spoken to you a couple of times about the proposed changes to Formula 3 rules.

Im strong in my belief that a 75 hp cap on the class is the only practical solution to the whole F3 situation

75hp limit has a heap of REAL WORLD advantages.

1) It doesn’t add a whole bunch of new rules for the riders or scrutineers to memorise.Id go so far as to say scrap all the supplementary regs applying to the twins –Lets apply the KISS principle.

2) It means the 400’s have a fighting chance at national level.Untill such time as they ride themselves into extinction. (a good 400 pumps out 70hp)

3) It removes the opportunities for the “cheque book racers” to just buy Horsepower and therefore race wins.

4) It opens up the chances for a new racer to buy a new SV/er6/hyusung 650 off the showroom floor and be basicly competitive. But it also lets a new racer perhaps tight on his funds the chance to buy a fettled 400 or even 250 two stroke at a fraction of the price.


That said the ONLY way it can work is to make the penalties for cheating so harsh that its not conceivable to do so.

Its simple really ---A bloke is really fast in a straight line on his— SV650 say

I say his bike is over HP –bang my protest money in.

His bike is dyno’d on the nearest MNZ approved dyno –its doing 85hp

BANG—he looses ALL series points he’s accumulated and can’t race in class until his bike dynos up at 75hp or less.

Id suggest that a 2% variation be available at this point –Ie if he dyno’s up at 76.5 hp hell be ok –to allow for temp/humidity variations.-HOWEVER only available at this point provided he was only over by 2%

That said id suggest that the HP limit be enforced at a two tier level

At NATIONAL level –the bike MUST be dyno’d and sealed –both motor and inductions system. NO seals-- no racing in F3 same as the sprts proddy guys

At Club level it’s a matter of using the protest system and making the penalties Im suggesting totally enforced





Running within these rules Id suggest we need to get Suzuki NZ on board to run a 650 production series within F3. (at national level)

But production is PRODUCTION –No fancy shocks,fairings,brakes or tyres

Road tyres.remove the breakables,crash bungs,glass direct replica fairings .

Aftermarket bars but in the factory position.no tyre warmers And a replacement muffler only.

Suzuki because realisticly Kawasaki/Hyusung don’t have budgets available.

Suzuki AU is already offering deals on New SV’s for people prepared to race em –why not do it again over here –like the SV series

Please feel free to call me anytime to discuss—0210354615

Tony Frost/Frosty

[Shaun]

See Ya, I have just realised that I have really been wasting my time trying to help here

[212-Motorsport]

I Rekon we have a standard 650 class run what yah brung type thing and not worry about fancy suspensionthis sorta class could be a good steping stone for riders coming up from 150's ete and if suzuki,kawasaki,hyosung New Zealand were to get involved I cant see it been a big problem to get mnz to make a champisonship class!!

[mikey]

yeh took you a while

tiddly winks is a good sport if you want to win on a tight budget. or hangman. or scrabble. or monopoly.

no offence but who really cares about winning a f3 championship in nz, after speaking with the legend shaun himself, i mostly agree,
f3 an lesser classes are about learning to race, and part of learning is adjusting bits on your bike, which sv dont offer much of.

if you think your being beaten by someone only becasue they have a superior bike. BUY A NEW ONE. paying them off is part of the fun.

[madkeenandy]

I agree, if you want to race on a cheap budget get a bucket or streetstock bike. I know they are not fast enough, but if you are really passionate about racing then you won't care what you ride as long as you can. I know i have a helluva lotta fun in F3 on my RG150, even in the last third of the field.

[Hillbilly]

If you seriously want to race, no matter what the class, it will cost you $$$$.
Don't complain cos somene can afford a better set up. That's life. A stock SV or Raptor for example are basically sports tourers, not sports bikes. For the track will they will need to be set up properly, and that costs money.

There's an article in Cycle Torque Australia from aguy who tried to race the in "new era" class on the cheap by buying a wrecked CBR900RR and all he got was trouble, tank slapping in every corner. If you acn't afford it, buy go bucket racing. It's still racing and it's very competitive.

[Shaun]

I cont care what any of you rish ass racers think I Rekon we have a standard 650 class run what yah brung type thing who gives a Fuck about ohlins this ohlins that this sorta class should sort the bitchs from the men and if suzuki,kawasaki,hyosung New Zealand were to get involved I cant see it been a big problem to get mnz to make a champisonship class!!

I know I said I was done here, and I am as far as posting my opinions on these rules, but still read to see what people are wanting, cause I like our sport


Very sorry to the Admin of this site, I have just sent a pm to the above member ( Literally) Calling him a Wanker, please red flag me for my penence

[ZorsT]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?

[Hillbilly]

I don't know. This is my first car and what I learnt to drive in. Had to put a doorstop under the clutch otherwise my knee would hit the solid steel dash. It's '57 Plymouth Savoy. No, I never bunny hopped, but I ran out of gas a lot!
Bought and paid for it myself, and the old lady hated it! Now, did it make me a better driver? Abolutely! No powersteering, drum brakes all around, manual 3speed and a mirror on the dashboard.

But that's a car! Nothing about cars related to bikes. You drive a car, but ride a bike. What you learn to ride on won't be the same as what you'll be racing - apart from buckets. So, hands up how many CB250's in F3?

[slowpoke]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?

Remember the thread is about rules for the Nationals. The National rounds should reward people who display excellence in bike preparation and/or riding talent, I don't see it as an arena to cater for brand new racers struggling for cash.
The beginners classes already exist at your local club meets. You can wobble around to your hearts content getting a feel for it in Buckets or Clubmans or pre-89's.
If you like it and want to go the next step then sure jump into F3. But at some stage you are going to want something you can tune and setup, rather continuing to ride around an ill handling bike.

In response to your example, teach someon to drive in an old bomb, then throw them into a new car and the first thing they'll do is stall the bugger 'cos it's so completely different. The sooner you can get them into current technology machinery the sooner they'll learn to master it.

[Brian d marge]

Now thats it ..I have had to borrow this 2cents worth ,,so I better make it last,
Racing is just that ..I am faster than you , period ( along the way there is a hell of a lot of fun)

Professional racing is profesional , each person doing the job that they are paid for to the utmost of their ability

My hero is carrol smith, wish I could have swept the floor at his shop . I ( as has already been observed ,) disagree with it costs money to race ...

Yes it does cost money, but I see time and time again money spent in the wrong places, off the top of my head would be Jarad love losing Paeroa due to still having a stock anti tilt sensor fitted to his bike ....??????

look at that ole triump in the side car class ,,, * thats an extreme case ,,*


The stuff that is coming out of the factory now is pretty good , but production tolerances mean that the cheaper way is often taken ( I love the r1 rear shock , larger shaft dia so that they can un looser tolerances , which saves a lot on the production line !
What I am sayin here is if you use your noddle you can achieve the same results without chucking ill spent money at things ,,( wave rotors anyone???)

So as I have said be fore , I would like to see a clear line of stepping stone that will result in riders being skilled enough ( in both racing AND corparate affairs, so that they will be of use to team owners, ( the people I know dont want some friendly fella who was good at his local track , they want results ,,
you dont want to know how much a booth at motegi costs !!!!!

It costs a bucket load of money to get a bike to the track with all the other paraphanalia that goes with it. ( NO I am not shooting my self in the foot , I am talking about racng at motegi at the national level . The people who race there have done their time in the super stocks or foggotten era )

So If I was a team owner, I would be wanting a rider, who could talk with the mechanic to dial in the bike QUICKLY. ( rossi , old tyres ?? ) a rider who brings in sponsorship and gets results ,,So that I can expliot the bugger !

Now originally F3 ( as far as I understand ) was about 400/250 2 stroke.,,but these bikes are not made anymore ,( last june the Jap government gave the ok for pilions to be taken on the motorway, yes there is still the 400cc licience BUT the fashion in shinjuku is for scooters * the burghman etc with cut down screens )

The factories are about a year behind this fashion ( except America honda who seems to be on the ball !)
So they arnt made anymore ,,ftr250 with all the crap removed is the latest,, whatch honda next year,,,flattracker anyone ...Nakes /retro anyone ( at least yamaha are pushing the boundries ..)

Rvf400s still command a price , but they arnt made now ,,, SO The only GROWTH class here is ST600

I think Britain has/is the same

So we need a stepping stone to F2?? * not sure of the name in NZ *

I would suggest buckets, Foggotten era ( or the eguiv , where one canpurchase for around 2-3 k _ , F2 , and either a gp250 or and open class

That was a very quick thought, the key there is as you progress so the skills needed are more in demand ,,,buckets ,,try anything , learn, create have fun

fogotten era , bigger bikes, more scope for adjustability , Sponsors getting on board ,,etc

F2 ,,starting to become semi pro her , 2000 ish cbr600, range of adjustment semi profesional crews....

National

professional. top of the line , you are out of there if you dont know squat ,, no boys playing with toys ... money to be spent and MADE..


Where does that leave F3..... Well personally a class that has 400 four strokes, 650 twins and 250 2 strokes RUNNING with super motard bikes is just a mess..IMHO

its either lap times ala aussie. or HP limits ( which cost money to enforce _) So if you do a 0.00003 second lap of queen street .. on a bicycle ...you sit on the grid next to me ( a legend in his own bedroom.. with a second hand copy of readers wives .. )

but there MUST imho be a CLEAR learning curve ,,from cradle to grave

there is here , today I was watching the kids racing pocket bikes.. the team set ups were very professional even at 5 or 6 years of age , on a pocket bike , they had pit tents ,, tyre warmers , SPONSORSHIP

Then they progressed to the NSR80 / 100 bikes , then to the RS125 then to the rs250 , then to ST600 ,,then to JSB 1000 .. right from the start its PROFESSIONAL ( well at least the attitude is .. wont say much about anything else .. proof here

My local shop races a 2001 cbr 600 in the st class, which can be bought for 1/2 a milion yen here
( that was the first one I found ,,22 hours to go if anyone wants it ! 1/2 a million was the most I have seen them go for ..)

Finally and I think most importantly is make the races a place where you misses want to go ,, Ruapuna on a cold grey day is HELL.. ( cold hotdog anyone ,,with red shit on it?? * what IS that stuff anyway ???)

Motegi on a cold grey day ,,has a great burger bar , shops , a video bar playing big screen bike races ( last time I was watching a lecture by the fella who designed the oval piston Honda ...- NZ has the hamilton jet ,,the britain , the worlds fastest indian ,,,,,,,,,,,)

oh dear waffling again and Nurse has called Matron ... so I better clear up this mess and scurry off to bed ,,before I get in to trouble


Stephen

If anyone requires advice on any matter , please write to me at the adress below

Horatio Wombat the third
D wing ( secure unit )
Happy valley Rest home
Tsuresehigashi
Japan

Please mark for the attention of Matron





the links may not work the rotten server has crashed sorry will try to find a better link later

[Kickaha]

I know I said I was done here, and I am as far as posting my opinions on these rules, but still read to see what people are wanting, cause I like our sport


Very sorry to the Admin of this site, I have just sent a pm to the above member ( Literally) Calling him a Wanker, please red flag me for my penence

You would deserve it

Just because someone has a contrary opinion and different ideas to yours does not make him a wanker

nice way to encourage the young guys Shaun

[cowpoos]

Could I have one too?

'cos I agree with this 'wanker'

While it is true that learning to dail in suspension is a needed skill in racing, wouldn't one learn more if they raced a bike that didn't handle EXACTLY as a racebike should?
To ride a bike like this well, and fast, everything you do would need to be execlent (throttle position, weight placement, breaking behaviour... you get my point). The riders sloppy, or misguided actions wouldn't be masked by having great suspension.
In saying this, i'm not trying to say that people with SV's with ohlins everything are sloppy riders.

If you disagree with me, whoopty shit. We all have our opinions.
But answer this question:
When you first learned to drive a car with a clutch, did your parents put you in a car that had a nice smooth, forgiving clutch, or force you to learn how with a difficult clutch, that either bunnyhopped you down the road, or stalled if you didn't get it *just* right?
Do you use the clutch better as a result?

I see where your coming from....but stock suspension on the track upto about 70% is okay....valving is alot more agresive when set up on a race bike....and set up is alot more balanced....and one hell of alot safer!

[ZorsT]

But that's a car! Nothing about cars related to bikes. You drive a car, but ride a bike. What you learn to ride on won't be the same as what you'll be racing - apart from buckets. So, hands up how many CB250's in F3?

The was I see it, the process of learning how to race is very similar to learning to drive a manual car, only more complicated.
You get told/read about how to do it
you go out there, and you try it
you (sometimes) get it wrong a few times
you then learn from these mistakes
get it right
practice getting it right, until it becomes second nature

F3 is a class that many people who have ridden for a while start out in.

Why not leave learning suspension until its needed (600's)?
While it is safer to have great suspension, i think the racers produced that learn this way would be smoother, and more understanding.

Go straight from an old car to a new car... first thing you do is stall it. Yep. Max of three times (five if your a slow learner) Thats how you learn. Mistakes.