Gunshop employee charged

[Jamezo]

Yes but that's because of the niggers. Check your facts.

[Jamezo]

On a lighter note, it's possible to pull all kinds of folk wisdom statements out of ones arse to 'prove' that greater gun availability decreases crime and makes people safer, however, the only evidence we should really be trusting, objective scientific studies, has repeatedly found the opposite.

Do we really want far-reaching societal decisions to be based on the rhetoric of what 'should' happen in some imaginary libertarian fantasy?

[Virago]

.......You want to have the 'right' as part of your 'adult status' to walk past my house carrying a firearm, and expect me to trust your 'adult judgment' while my kids are playing in the front yard? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Pure emotive bullshit.

Statistically speaking, guns are safer than cars, and a hell of a lot safer than bikes. Perhaps we can't be trusted to drive past your house either?

Due to media hype, there's too much hysteria surrounding the firearms issue. You should have heard the near panic that ensued when a gunshop in Dunedin shifted to new premises across the road from a school.

[Kickaha]

Fish is saying if you carry a gun past his kids, suddenly you could become nutty and kill them.

He didn't say any such thing

Quite true, but of course you could easily kill them with your bare hands, a knife or a club.

Not as easily as with a gun though and bystanders would have more chance of stopping it

We have actually had mass murders in this country with a club.

Bet there's more with guns though http://massmurder.zyns.com/murder.ph...=New%20Zealand

What fish doesnt like to consider is the fact that if you were watching a nutter killing his kids, unarmed you would probably just have to watch them die. Armed you could stop it.

Not if he's got a gun and is a better faster shot than you are

Guns dont make people more violent, thats just anti gun rubbish. What guns do is make females, the elderly, and the small able to defend themselves.

They also let those groups of people kill others a lot easier to

The safest 25 american states all allow you to carry a gun for self defence. The most dangerous state is NYC where guns are banned.

You're 3 times more likely to be shot in Manchester England (Coronation st City) than you are to murdered by all causes in North Dakota.

some sources to back that up please and not from some pro gun site either something independent

So, while I wont break the law and carry a gun for self defence, I do think I should be able to.

what situation have you ever been in that you would have needed it?

[geoffm]

On a lighter note, it's possible to pull all kinds of folk wisdom statements out of ones arse to 'prove' that greater gun availability decreases crime and makes people safer, however, the only evidence we should really be trusting, objective scientific studies, has repeatedly found the opposite.

Do we really want far-reaching societal decisions to be based on the rhetoric of what 'should' happen in some imaginary libertarian fantasy?

Greater gun availability amongst the law abiding does reduce crime. You be wanting to read Lott and Mustard's huge report on the matter, which did a longitudinal study broken down by the 4000 counties in the US.
David Kleck's report is another one.
Both of these are academically peer reviewed papers published in respected journals.
If you want the links, I have them in the archives.
Geoff

[jrandom]

emotive bullshit... guns are safer than cars... Perhaps we can't be trusted to drive past your house either... too much hysteria

Guns are weapons. Cars are transport appliances.

Yes, I'd love it if I could stop people driving down the road past my front gate; I live on State Highway 16 in an 80kph zone, and I always make a point of closing the gates when the kids are outside playing. Unfortunately, it's just too inconvenient to ban people's main means of transport, even though multi-ton chunks of metal rolling along at 100kph are pretty dangerous things.

Stopping people from wandering past my front gate with something that has the sole design purpose of killing things is another matter, however. I reckon I've got a pretty good argument there.

Don't accuse me of gun hysteria, either; if you followed my posts you'd note that I own plenty of them myself.

[Hitcher]

Guns are weapons. Cars are transport appliances.

Well done. I get annoyed when people use completely unrelated comparisons to demonstrate relative actuarial risk. If one fears cars, one can choose other forms of transport. If a bullet is heading one's way, one has comparatively few options...

[davereid]

Thanks Geoff, I dont have all the links to hand, but there is a wealth of evidence linking crime to criminals, and rejecting links between access to firearms and crime.

Just for your interest..

Dominica leads the world in total crime per capita, with 113.822 per 1,000 people. New Zealand is second with 105.881 per 1,000 people, and Finland is third, with 101.526 per 1,000 people. Yemen has the lowest, with 1.16109 per 1,000 people. The data comes from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

Just looking at homocide..

NZ rate 2000 = 3.0 per 100,000 people - Source NZ Police

US rate : lower than ours in 16 states, with Maine, New Hampshire and Nth Dakota at half our rate or better and iowa at 1.6.
Source wikipedia

[scumdog]

Well done. I get annoyed when people use completely unrelated comparisons to demonstrate relative actuarial risk. If one fears cars, one can choose other forms of transport. If a bullet is heading one's way, one has comparatively few options...

Both are mere mechanical devices, yet the one NOT designed to kill does just that better than the one that IS designed to kill.
Go figure.

[Mr Skid]

Source wikipedia

Ah, well it *must* be right then.

[Kickaha]

Just looking at homocide..

NZ rate 2000 = 3.0 per 100,000 people - Source NZ Police

US rate : lower than ours in 16 states, with Maine, New Hampshire and Nth Dakota at half our rate or better and iowa at 1.6.
Source wikipedia

So it's higher than ours in the other 34?

[jrandom]

Maine, New Hampshire and Nth Dakota at half our rate or better and iowa at 1.6...

Not to put too fine a point on it, those states are all full of nice white people who wouldn't hurt a fly. A lack or abundance of guns has nothing to do with their lower crime rate. Don't confuse correlation with cause.

[sAsLEX]

Ah, well it *must* be right then.

It aint bad....... who writes the other sources? And are they free from influence?

[davereid]

Quote Fish : Not to put too fine a point on it, those states are all full of nice white people who wouldn't hurt a fly. A lack or abundance of guns has nothing to do with their lower crime rate.

Err, does that mean that I have convinced you and your now on my side ?

[davereid]

ps Wiki quotes SOURCE: US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2004