Porkgate

[Hitcher]

Did I mention anything about exporting live animals for slaughter in order to save a few bucks?

No you didn't. I can hardly wait for this explanation...

[Phurrball]

A clip from yesterday's Campbell live

Hat tip to the SAFE stand at University [I'm not a member BTW. Have issues with some of their policies. They're doing well on this though].

Peter Sankoff lectures in Animals and the Law at Auckland Law School. I just love the evasive answer the Pork Board man gives when asked if the practices screened were cruel. Sophistry at its very finest. :LOL:

Although they could be better, New Zealand's animal welfare standards are pretty darned good on a global basis.

Yes, acknowledged as world-leading legislation...until the exemptions...some highlights:

s4 Definition of physical, health, and behavioural needs

In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the term physical, health, and behavioural needs, in relation to an animal, includes—

(a) Proper and sufficient food and water:
(b) Adequate shelter:
(c) Opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour:
(d) Physical handling in a manner which minimises the likelihood of unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress:
(e) Protection from, and rapid diagnosis of, any significant injury or disease,—
being a need which, in each case, is appropriate to the species, environment, and circumstances of the animal.

s10 Obligation in relation to physical, health, and behavioural needs of animals

The owner of an animal, and every person in charge of an animal, must ensure that the physical, health, and behavioural needs of the animal are met in a manner that is in accordance with both—
(a) Good practice; and
(b) Scientific knowledge.

...Wonderful stuff! Applies to all animals in NZ except the following:

These animals can be treated in ways that breach the act, because the codes of 'welfare' say it's OK. This is the issue. We can be cruel to pigs because the law says it's OK. We can be fined, jailed etc if we treat any other animal this way, but not pigs and the other poor creatures set out below!

Schedule 4
Codes continued in force as codes of welfare issued under this Act
Section 191
1 Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Circus Animals and Information for Circus Operators.

2 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Animals Used in Rodeo Events.

3 Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Exhibit Animals and Information for Animal Exhibit Operators.

4 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Pigs.

5 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Layer Hens.

6 Code of Recommendations and Minimum Standards for the Welfare of Broiler Chickens.

What do they have in common? Economic concerns are more important than their welfare.

But I don't think that is SAFE's motivation here in "exposing" this matter which, in case anybody still hasn't heard, involved trespass and illegal entry into a commercial piggery that, while code compliant, is owned by a farmer who has plans to invest in a superior facility from an animal welfare standpoint.

[My emphasis. See above]

SAFE's motivation is merely to bring practices in pig farms to the public's attention, and that fact that this is perfectly legal and OK according to NZ law.

The heart of the issue is to show people that reprehensible practices are legal

If owners of SOME commercial piggeries had nothing to hide, and were more forthcoming in allowing access, SAFE would not need to break the law to achieve their aims. The fact that pig farms will not allow access speaks volumes.

I think SAFE have done a remarkable job - as said before, top-flight PR firms couldn't do better. That said, I do not condone breaking and entering. If you can tell me another way SAFE could have brought this practice to the public's attention, I'd love to hear it...

There are many reasons for choosing not to eat meat, but the "sentient beings" reason is probably one of the sillier. About the only animal on this planet (apart from those that are lethally toxic) that isn't on humanity's menu is humanity itself.

Sorry Hitcher, I have either been misunderstood, or I have been unclear as you seem to have the wrong end of the stick - the sentience argument was not aimed at vegetarianism or pig farmers. It was aimed at those who say they don't give a fuck. Yes, overall, it's not top of the list. Environmental concerns ought to be.

There are good reasons for this, particularly moral and ethical ones about consuming one's own kind, but there are also legitimate health reasons too. (Humourous quip snip)

There should be moral, ethical and health considerations considered in relation to eating all meat too (Except, perhaps that required to survive) A pig is pretty damned close to human flesh AFAIK...

Like any other religious believers, I am more than happy to coexist with Buddhists or even vegans for that matter, on the condition that they do not proselytise and don't unnecessarily protest if I consume them if there is nothing else around to eat.

Fair enough. I don't consider myself proselytising - rather arguing logically from a informed position. [Probably better informed on the law than most anyway]

BTW - My canines are plenty sharp from lack of use. Those of us that are not anaemic might put up quite a fight, given our healthy circulatory systems and the fact we're less full of old shit from a high-fibre diet

Pick off a weak one first...

[gatch]

owned...

Good on you for making an effort, rather than just talking it up..

I still think there is much worse things to worry about.. Help the animals live a better life before we cut them into little bits and eat them or something a little closer to home.. Save the children ? Womans refuge ?

[Phurrball]

owned...

Good on you for making an effort, rather than just talking it up..

I still think there is much worse things to worry about.. Help the animals live a better life before we cut them into little bits and eat them or something a little closer to home.. Save the children ? Womans refuge ?

Quite right. There are worse things to worry about. Of course, vegetarianism for ecological reasons is pretty 'big picture' given the growing middle classes in India and China.

That said, I do think our treatment of animals (as well as women and children) does serve as a barometer of society.

I'm not so much a SAFE kind of guy, given my background genetically modifying things. I'm more of an ARLAN man.

Phew! That's enough for tonight.

[Hinny]

There's a silent P in swimming...

'I really hate it when your mates come over and you sit around in the pool all afternoon and you are the only one who gets out to go to the toilet.
Fucken mates - go over and piss in their pool.' ( Rodney Rude)

[Slyer]

Pork isn't that great tasting anyway.

Everyone needs to eat more fish.
100% free range, 100% organic and delicious!
Fish get it the best by far.
(The ones caught in the wild at least, farmed fish can get it pretty shit. Anyone got any stats on how much of the fish is caught vs farmed?)

Bacon on the other hand...

[Phurrball]

Pork isn't that great tasting anyway.

Everyone needs to eat more fish.
100% free range, 100% organic and delicious!
Fish get it the best by far.
(The ones caught in the wild at least, farmed fish can get it pretty shit. Anyone got any stats on how much of the fish is caught vs farmed?)

Bacon on the other hand...

Yes, bacon.

Ever wonder why it's such an unnatural colour?

Meat shouldn't go from red to pink, should go red to brown when cooked. All due to the unnatural oxidation states of the myoglobin in the flesh caused by preservatives. A little carcinogenic too...probably why people love the stuff so much. (Nitrite IIRC - food microbiology many moons ago)

Hate to disappoint Slyer - but unless you're catching your own fish, fish is the single most unsustainable form of animal protein... even if it's healthier than red meat.

Dredged up in nets in a pretty uncontrolled fashion from wild stocks of an indeterminate number. It's why so many fisheries have collapsed. The likes of Orange Roughy are already dead by the time they get to the surface due to the massive pressure differential between their deep home and the surface. Not really natural predation that...blardy humans.

[Slyer]

Yes but what isn't a global conspiracy these days?

[MSTRS:Me]

@MSTRS whether the human dentition and digestive tract are designed to be omnivorous is highly arguable.
Not what I've always been taught.

Look at our nearest relatives (the great apes) - IIRC, the only meat-eater there is the chimpanzee - and they eat meat rarely. Western humans eat far, far too much meat. It shows in our bowel cancer statistics. Gorillas have pretty mean teeth, but are completely vegetarian. Let's face it though, we have transcended them in that WE have the ability to make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE.
Regardless of physical attributes, there is always a choice. We make it on a conscious level, or some do because of a peculiarity in their body function. Who knows why some animals have meat-dentition but eat plants. Look at Pandas...

But too many have their heads in the sand and happily consume all sorts of tidy, sterile meat from packets with not a thought towards where it came from.
Yes, and if they had to raise their own animals for eating...they wouldn't.

If you're aware of the reality and choose to partake, that's up to you. I have less issue with meat eaters of this kind than the 'head in the sand' kind.
Personally? Well aware, including killing etc too.

The real issue here is the fact society's rules say we must treat animals a certain way. EXCEPT for pigs and a few others. It's OK to treat them in a way that would be illegal for any other animal. THAT'S what is truly wrong here. (Oh, and invertebrates get no protection whatsoever)
If you remember, I said "That's not to say we have a 'right' to mistreat animals, however. On the surface, sow crates appear cruel. And probably are. Farmers do not do anything without there being a sound commercial reason. My jury is out on this subject." Every kind of animal has different needs, and needs to be handled in ways best suited to that animal. If sow crates meet that need for certain stages of their cycle, then so be it. If proof exists that these unfortunate sows spend their lives in such a contraption, then that is a whole other matter.

How about NZ stands up for itself and tells the rest of the world to go fuck themselves when it comes to importing CHEAP pork (and other meat) from countries that can't adhere to the standards that the majority of the NZ populace demands.

I think you will find that the 'majority of the populace' demands cheap, and really has no interest in the standards under which that cheap meat is produced.
Sure, Joe and Mary Public has been unsettled by this pork industry exposure, but in real terms it matters not a jot to them. Next week, there will be another sensational media event to distract them, and they'll be down the supermarket bypassing the $19/kg 'ethically-raised' bacon to grab the $9/kg pack they've always gone for.

Phurrball has just owned a few old KB asses

[Hinny]

A mate farms pigs and he really looks after them.
Here he has them out to a party.

[Beemer]

...Part of being human is empathy. Cruelty to animals is one mark of a psychopath. Truly not giving a shit (as opposed to just saying that) is really only a step away. If you've ever had a pet you cared for, then you probably give more of a shit than you think. It's more likely that you haven't REALLY turned your mind to the issue...

Well said. Being a carnivore is one thing, not caring how animals of any kind are treated is another. (Don't even get me started on the scum who attacked cattle with knives in Gisborne, hacking one animal's hindquarters off with what is believed to have been an axe, before leaving them bleeding and injured.)

I remember talking to someone once and they said people who love or hate animals are normal - it's the ones who truly don't care, who have absolutely no feelings or concern for animals, who are the ones to keep an eye on. If you love or hate something, you actually give a damn - if you have no feelings whatsoever regarding whether an animal is treated well or abused - that is a worrying sign.

I don't mind saying that despite being a meat eater, if I had to personally kill the animals I ate, I doubt I could do it. I don't have a problem with animals being farmed for food, but I could never shoot an animal or slit its throat to provide my family with food - unless we were starving and it was the only source of food. Yes, I AM a big softie, but at least I can do my bit by not buying pork or eggs raised on farms like this. I buy free range chickens but have to admit I can't always get free range chicken breasts or pieces. If they were available locally all the time, that is all I would buy.

[Lissa]

The debate is about the state of our pigs being farmed for meat. I doubt very much the majority of pig farmers mistreat their animals, the pigs (as everything comes down to), are money. If a pig dies because it hasnt been cared for the farmer is out of pocket. If you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

[MSTRS:Me]

The debate is about the state of our pigs being farmed for meat. I doubt very much the majority of pig farmers mistreat their animals, the pigs (as everything comes down to), are money. If a pig dies because it hasnt been cared for the farmer is out of pocket. If you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

Almost agree with that. The 'debate' is more about the conditions under which some pigs are farmed. Yes, all meat animals exist purely for the end result, but if there is no need to un-naturally confine them, then why do so?

[Beemer]

TIf you dont like the fact that animals are killed (in various ways and not very pleasantly) to feed us then dont eat any meat. To say that you would never farm or care for and then kill your own animals is a cop out if you do in fact eat meat. Whether they are free ranged or not the end result is they die to feed your bellies.

I'm not sure if this was in response to my post but what I was trying to get across is that I confess to being happy to eat meat, knowing it is raised and killed to feed me, but I personally could not kill an animal myself. It's no different from a beloved pet needing to be put down when it is ill - I can take it to a vet to be euthanaised but there is no way in hell I could do it myself.

Most animals in NZ are farmed and killed as humanely as possible and there are laws about this. Despite it being legal, I don't agree with chickens and pigs being kept in small cages or stalls, so I choose not to buy meat/eggs that has been farmed in this manner.

I don't think it's a cop out to not want to farm, care for or kill animals and yet still eat meat. I don't grow all my own fruit and vegetables either - is it a cop out to buy them from someone else? If you extend this further, basically you are saying we shouldn't eat or use anything we don't grow or create ourselves, which is unrealistic for most of us.

[James Deuce]

My only farming experience is farming pigs.

It was not a nice experience. Free range pig farming means a high mortality rate for piglets. Even the ag inspector sent after a complaint about dead piglets suggested Sow crates until the piglets were weaned.

I'm simply not mentally equipped for farming. Giving animals like pigs "nice" conditions simply gives them scope to break fences, stalls, water troughs, pipes, and kill and eat their piglets. If mum gets irritated when she's feeding them, she'll simply roll over and kill some of them.

The legal twaddle is irrelevant in the face of those challenges.