I'm with idle X 3.
The Christchurch cop shot the guy with hammer just because he could even though the guy was just standing there with his hands by his side.
So fuckin' what?.
Loud and Uncouth
I'm with idle X 3.
The Christchurch cop shot the guy with hammer just because he could even though the guy was just standing there with his hands by his side.
So fuckin' what?.
Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
" Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"
is currently sulking in the Sin Bin
Originally Posted by scumdog
SD for Commissioner
SD for Commissioner
Filled out the application yet, have ya, have ya?
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
OK, here we go again (and yes, it IS getting circular).
To start with I've been attacked by my opposition for identifying their repeated use of many fallacy style arguments.
I encourage everyone here to study a this little as nothing destroys a good debate as quick as people throwing these about willy nilly.
As noted, I've studied the subject formally and specifically done a research project on "The use of fallacy arguments in internet debate". Of course I recognise their use and am quick to point them out.
Here's a bloody good web site explaining the various types of fallacy argument: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/introtof.html
I could identify some 20 specific fallacies used by those arguing against me. The use of ad hominem (personal attack) excluded. Basically, the use of these fallacies may not be deliberate or specifically designed to ruin debate; often the user doesn't even know they are doing it and could not define a particular fallacy if their life depended on it. That doesn't make their use any less odious so do yourself a favour and at least bookmark that page for the future.
Basically, if you fel uncomfortable about someone's argument style and can't see their logic, there's a good chance they're using one of these fallacies.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Now to the point again.
I came here when this thread was already old. What I saw was a couple of cops and what I'd call their sycophants trying to sell the police propaganda BEFORE any investigation had revealed anything let alone an independent investigation (something we'll never see in this case).
The callous discard displayed for human life by those arguments disgusted me and I determined to provide the polar opposite argument in order to engender rational debate rather than cronyism, sycophantic garbage and PR Spin.
I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed. I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.
The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand, not serve the Police. As a citizen of this country, my opinion is not only valid, it is important and every bit as worthy as any argument offered by my detractors.
As servants of the people the Police must be bound by the moral restraints we, their employers, demand and be held to totally fair and transparent examination if their actions seem extreme. The examination up to now has NOT been transparent and fair since the Police themselves investigate the Police and therefore it is inconceivable that there is no bias in such investigations.
The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.
As I continued to say, it's about choices. The Police seem to reach far too readily for the gun. Human nature tells us that if you give someone a new toy, they will always want to use it (Whether they say so or not). That's also the argument against tasers: rather than reduce violent behaviour and resentment against police, it may actually increase these.
Add to that the 'right' Police give themselves to shoot to kill. My brother is an ex soldier and he's a crack shot with many years of training and experience with a weapon. I have no doubt that he is more skilled than 95%+ of all NZ Police in the use of firearms. However, if he drew a gun and killed an 'attacker' like the recent hammer weilding guy, the NZ Police would most likeley charge him immediately with murder, manslaughter and/or firearms offences as they have done on the recent past. Frankly, the less well trained Police with access to guns scares me and points to an Amerikan style police service where they see themselves as victims or above the law.
The arguments presented by the police here and by their supporters all basically said the guy deserved to die. They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own). We KNOW the Police are not completely honest in every case and we have a number of very famous cases to point to in that regard: Arthur Allen Thomas and the recent sex cases for instance.
There was no attempt amongst them to even try and think of a better way to handle such a situation than drawing a gun and shooting it 4 times in a lethal manner. I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war. Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.
I am not attacking the cop specifically here, I am attacking police training and culture. I find it abhorrent and the disdain cops have for the views of their employers (taxpayers) disgusts me. I don't want to live in Amerika and I don't want most of that culture imported into New Zealand; I really believe we are better than that.
I also wonder about those here who took this opportunity to have a whine about dole bludgers etc. Why didn't they identify that these cops are spending our tax dollars here when they should have been working? Or is it that they WERE working for the Police SPIN machine? If these two are onlone in work hours, how many more are and if, like most businesses, such online time was banned in work hours, how much more could we get out of our Police force for the same money?
The cops here have as much right to post as I do. I'm on holiday however and I don't post from work. Next week my holiday is over and I'll be unable to post much here. I hope others are as disgusted as I am and take up the baton.
Hardcore Biker
Let me just add
Well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it; it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.
There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there's Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape 'em off, Jim.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Pex, I truly believe you're the wisest person on this thread; self included
Tornado Alley
Read my posts... I am on leave. After the porngate saga, we can not use the computor for anything like this KB thingee. I don't post from work either. The weather is crappy and can't do much, so here I am...
bouncy
Can I just address this... You speak of choices. Okay, then why are you not addressing the choice that the driver has in initially deciding to pull over or do a runner? I absolutely despise the idea that police should what? Look the other way? Let people who endangering themselves and others run amok?The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.
You suggest that all that would happen if cops did not chase and "escalate the situation" that all would happen is the loss of licence (how that follows if they haven't actually caught the driver I don't know but...) but do you really think that if the message that young drivers get that if they run from the cops, that they will get off scot free, that will not in fact be the escalating factor here?
I would have thought that the idea that if they do a runner, then they will be really pushing the boundaries and possibly wiping out with possible death versus hit 130km / hour and the cops will call off the pursuit. Hmmm decisions decisions.....
And you know III, I never did a merry dance over the guy in CHCH being killed - although I certainly did not weep. Again, you speak of choices, all I can say is that his choice when faces with a person with a gun aimed at him was to do what the man with the gun wanted. I would actually prefer that the pendulum not swing back completely the way of facism (or whatever you want to call it) but ffs, I want our justice system to stop handing out slaps with wet bus tickets and administer proper justice.
It's not a matter of the man "deserving" to die - he made his choice to not retreat when faced with the possibility of being shot.
."No Matter what you do there will be critics."
Apathy - I could take it or leave it...
Weapons of Mass Acceleration
They don't want to read ya posts mate, they just want to bleat on in their little armchair-critics world oblivious to what it is really like in the real world with police making split-second decisions under huge pressure. But hey, who are we to comment huh just because we have actually been there and done that?!
Forum whore
Yea like what'll it be today?? KFC or Subway.
Skyyrder
Free Scott Watson.
is currently sulking in the Sin Bin
No, I want to read them. Please continue.They don't want to read ya posts mate, they just want to bleat on in their little armchair-critics world oblivious to what it is really like in the real world with police making split-second decisions under huge pressure. But hey, who are we to comment huh just because we have actually been there and done that?!
Geriatric hoon
"Getting"???
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
(my original post in blue, cops reply in white, response to cop in orange):
Originally Posted by idleidolidyll
I came here when this thread was already old. What I saw was a couple of cops and what I'd call their sycophants trying to sell the police propaganda BEFORE any investigation had revealed anything let alone an independent investigation (something we'll never see in this case).
And you weren't???
Indeed I was: in RESPONSE to you and your mates biased bullshit.
The callous discard displayed for human life by those arguments disgusted me and I determined to provide the polar opposite argument in order to engender rational debate rather than cronyism, sycophantic garbage and PR Spin.
Your callous disregard for the cops life disgusted me...
I never showed ANY disregard fore the cops life. I said he failed to consider other options because of poor training, police mentality etc. Your fallacy of trying to put words in my mouth is childish.
I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed.
Who commenced what, with the cuntstable call?
I didn't COMMENCE, I RESPONDED with that one after you and your mob decided to try and label me a criminal because I opposed your point of view. More dumb fallacy.
I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.
The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand,
We do...
sure, and sometimes you serve yourselves without regard for public opinion. that's the point of THIS debate.
not serve the Police. As a citizen of this country, my opinion is not only valid, it is important and every bit as worthy as any argument offered by my detractors. As servants of the people the Police must be bound by the moral restraints we, their employers, demand and be held to totally fair and transparent examination if their actions seem extreme.
The media attacked first... they did the same at Waitara and boy, were lessons learned there... they said nothing then and look what happened, even the PM said "it may have been a racially motivated killing." After the media attack in this instance, the Police responded with witness accounts.
boo hoo! The media is to be congratulated for raising public awaremess to other sides of the story. As for witnesses, other witnesses suggest the opposite and instead of trying to offer rational debate, you attempt to vilify the opposing witnesses as you and yours attempted to vilify me.
The examination up to now has NOT been transparent
Yep, Police put words into all those witnesses mouths... Both sides have aired their view.
Yawn. Spin is not just for simplistic minds and it can be quite sophisticated. The Police have NOT been a transparent organisation for a very long time.
and fair since the Police themselves investigate the Police and therefore it is inconceivable that there is no bias in such investigations.
You've never seen the resources that go into Police investigating their own. Makes me think it is worth turning into a crim...
Irrelevant and hearsay, an appeal to authority and another fallacy.. When any organisation investigates itself there is the potential and probability for abuse of the system. Justice must always be SEEN to be done and that has often not been the case with the PCA.
The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.
That, is a fair call... but again, this guy was shot for rushing at the cop who had been called to do something, then having a crack with a hammer... I'm getting dizzy......
And if the cop had been trained better to not provoke the situation further or back off when danger threatened and call for assistance or select some other avenue that lethal force, perhaps a person would still be alive today: that is the whole point. As for the supposed attack, again, that is subject to the non transparent investigations of the PCA and you are merely leaping to conclusions based on the closing of the ranks.
continues on next post due to KB limits
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
As I continued to say, it's about choices. The Police seem to reach far too readily for the gun. Human nature tells us that if you give someone a new toy, they will always want to use it (Whether they say so or not).
Simple bollocks. Guns are not toys. I sure as hell never want to use one, but if the choice is him or me, he loses every time.
No, they are not toys but human nature indicates that when given something, people will have a desire to use it. Again you makie a conclusion based on opinion and present it as fact: fallacy.
That's also the argument against tasers: rather than reduce violent behaviour and resentment against police, it may actually increase these.
May be... but this one at least would still be alive now, resenting the Police, if he wishes...
Yes, I would have preferred he had been tasered but I don't particularly want them here either because once they have them, I am sure cops will find reasons to use them unnecessarily.
Add to that the 'right' Police give themselves to shoot to kill. My brother is an ex soldier and he's a crack shot with many years of training and experience with a weapon. I have no doubt that he is more skilled than 95%+ of all NZ Police in the use of firearms. However, if he drew a gun and killed an 'attacker' like the recent hammer weilding guy, the NZ Police would most likeley charge him immediately with murder, manslaughter and/or firearms offences as they have done on the recent past.
Can't argue that, and that annoys me too... I would be saying good on him...
The only thing wrong with that is that the cop should be charged with something automatically just as a civilian would be. One law for everyone.
Frankly, the less well trained Police with access to guns scares me and points to an Amerikan style police service where they see themselves as victims or above the law.
Wrong there too... American cops have access to an arms range whenever they like. NOt above the law, hence the homicide investigation.
Nope, my obseravtions suggest to me that Yank cops DO think they are above the law and that they have the very mentality that I bemoan in NZ cops on this thread: the inability to make a non lethal choice in certain situations like this or car chases.
The arguments presented by the police here and by their supporters all basically said the guy deserved to die.
Not just supporters... witnesses too...
And other witnesses say otherwise but you ignored that completely except to try and vilify them when I raised the point.
They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own).
As above... media attacked, Police responded...
....with the usual whitewash. yes, i know.
We KNOW the Police are not completely honest in every case and we have a number of very famous cases to point to in that regard: Arthur Allen Thomas and the recent sex cases for instance.
Soooooo last century... 4 cops in the last 30 years... O.K......
Sure, we still suffer under police investigating police. If we had traditionally had an independent organisation investigating the police perhaps we may have known of many many more. Sadly we never have and cops have always been able to sweep it under the carpet or produce the spin they wanted by controlling the very process.
There was no attempt amongst them to even try and think of a better way to handle such a situation than drawing a gun and shooting it 4 times in a lethal manner.
I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war.
No attack here... just pointed out your very flawed argument...
Nope, you merely attacked and didn't offer any rational debate on the point raised.
Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.
Same here... we could compare notes....
Indeed and THAT indicates that it is important not to let your one sided opinions hold absolute sway here.
I am not attacking the cop specifically here, I am attacking police training and culture. I find it abhorrent and the disdain cops have for the views of their employers (taxpayers) disgusts me. I don't want to live in Amerika and I don't want most of that culture imported into New Zealand; I really believe we are better than that.
Fair call, but that is not what you have said, til now really... As for Amerika, take a look at the street gang scene. It is here, but it certainly is not here in a Police sense... I too don't want that to occur...
Yes it has been what I've said. You were merely too fixated on other parts of my posts to notice.
If these two are online in work hours, how many more are and if, like most businesses, such online time was banned in work hours, how much more could we get out of our Police force for the same money?
The cops here have as much right to post as I do. I'm on holiday however and I don't post from work. Next week my holiday is over and I'll be unable to post much here. I hope others are as disgusted as I am and take up the baton.
Read my posts... I am on leave. After the porngate saga, we can not use the computor for anything like this KB thingee. I don't post from work either. The weather is crappy and can't do much, so here I am...
Good, that's what I expect from taxpayer funded orgs. Is scumdog also on holiday?
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Now, I understand that you want to get the last word in.
no problem, the argument is circular and I've clearly said my bit. I'm back at work next week and will spend much less time here. Hopefully some of the many who have encouraged me will take up the baton and not allow such blatant one sided opinions to get away without challenge.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks