Special treatment for Maori.

[SPman]

Hmmm
A powerful post, that, in so many ways, speaks for a lot of us!

How about a link to an alternative maori tribal view.
http://www.listener.co.nz/default,1562.sm

[riffer]

I agree with you Jim.

My family has faced persecution based on race on both sides, with the Celtic side in Scotland and the Latvian/Jewish side in Riga. My last name, while sounding German, actually comes from the Russian Baltic country of Latvia.

My great-great-great grandfather, Wolfe Gottlieb, escaped (with his family of some nine-odd children) the purges of Stalin and together they trekked across Europe eventually finding England, where he and the children worked menial jobs until they saved enough money to earn passage to this country.

My mothers family were dirt poor and my grandfather had to cycle from Edinburgh to Leith every day to get work which just put food on the table for their family. My mother was one of the young women who came out on the boats in the early 60s to New Zealand.

My family has had to work damn hard to get anything in life and never demanded any handouts - I was brought up to feel the same way.

While I don't deny some Maori were treated incredibly harshly I feel the victim mentality has been pushed too far. Certain people are profiting and the "victims" never see the money.

When I was growing up in the 1970s there was never this Maori and Pakeha thing. Maybe I was sheltered. All I know is, at Taita College there was an equal mix of a lot of races, pakeha, maori, islander, and asian. Race was never an issue - if you forget that the white kids were punks and the brown kids were into reggae or breakdancing.

I'm not a racist though. I'm proud my wife and step-son are Tainui. But we're not going to be looking for a handout just because of their race. Ngai Tahu should be held up as an example for Maori. Although I don't agree with a lot they do there's no denying their positive influence on their people. And I congratulate them for it.

Perhaps they could share some of their wisdom to us all.

[Hitcher]

Jim

Well said! As a sixth-generation New Zealander whose ancestors (well some of them) were Scottish crofters driven off by the English land clearances I empathise well with your sentiments. People are people. We have to learn to celebrate diversity and difference and get along with each other.

At times like these I am reminded of the poignant words of Austin Powers' father Nigel: "The two things I hate the most are racial intolerance and the Dutch!"

[Holy Roller]

Jim

Well said! As a sixth-generation New Zealander whose ancestors (well some of them) were Scottish crofters driven off by the English land clearances I empathise well with your sentiments. People are people. We have to learn to celebrate diversity and difference and get along with each other.

At times like these I am reminded of the poignant words of Austin Powers' father Nigel: "The two things I hate the most are racial intolerance and the Dutch!"

Like hitcher I too am a 6th generation New zealander on my fathers side on my mothers side I'm Scottish from the Isle of Skye they got turfed of the land to make may for sheep... Their croft is still standing (will go visit one day) Also like celticno6 My grandmothers side were from the Rhine, Swiss German, also had to escape to NZ. While I have no Maori blood I have plenty of Maori relations (any one remember Freddy Woodman and his bro..Allblacks in the 80's)

all said to show that lots of NZ's have a case for redress but lets not let that get in the way of celebrating diversity and difference and to get along with each other. Not all of the English wanted to rip off Maori in the 1800's just follow the case of Parahaka in the Taranaki. It seemed to be a case of evil triumphing over good at that time just as it seems to happen today in other places and people.
United we are strong divided we show our undergarments to the world stage.

[Motu]

As an 18 yr old I sold my 1938 Chev Coupe for $150 - I was very naive at the time and had no idea as to the true value of the vehicle,especially in light of later developments,them becoming collector vehicles and such.I feel I was taken advantage of,although with my lack of experiance at the time I didn't realize this - so....um....ah....yeah - I reckon I should either have the car returned to me,or to be pepaid at it's current value,say...ah...wadda ya reckon mate? $18,000? should keep me happy.I realize some of you may think this is being rather extravagant - but you weren't there,you didn't know how much the car meant to me,how much fun and enjoyment it gave me ,how many girls it pulled - to be deprived of it,the loss of enjoyment of life,it just cuts me to the bone,I am only a shadow of my former self...I have cried every day since I sold it.Please...help me and give me your support,sign my petition and write a letter to your MP on my behalf.Thanks for listening.(shit,this Tawny Ports got a kick)

Oh yeah,we had to go round to this dickhead mothers house on Xmas eve and threaten the bastard to get the rest of the money,I mean,ya shouldn't have to stoop this low y'know?

[Hoon]

Well I'm Maori and I'm all for race based privileges because I consider myself to be one of the success stories.

(/cue obligatory sob story to win hearts before launching into spiel).

I grew up in suburban Auckland in a poor solo parent Maori family. My dad moved to the city to start a family, drove yellow buses for almost 20 years and put a lot of effort into making sure we got a good education. I didn't take school as serious as I should have and only now that I'm grown up do I realise how much effort he actually made. Whenever I fell in with the wrong crowd and got into trouble (which I did regularly), after a good hiding I would be forbidden to hang out with them again.

Anyway I finished 7th form and went to University. I applied for every Maori University grant/ financial assistance under the sun and even though I didn't have good enough marks for some courses I was still able to get in under the 5% Maori quota. After my BSc I went straight into a great paying IT job where I have been for the last 8 years. I now consider myself to be a productive member of society and am now well poised to provide my offspring (and them theirs) a great opportunity at life. My sister got a conjoint BCom/BSc and after we left home my dad quit the buses, went to Uni as an adult student and left with a Master of Arts degree with first class honours.

(edit: I should mention that the grants and handouts I received by no means paid my way and only totalled about $3000 over the years, likewise with my sister and father)

However my cousins aren't so lucky. Most are school drop outs with no jobs, too many kids and some in prison/heavily involved in crime, drugs and alcohol.
If it weren't for my fathers determination to break the cycle and the govt handouts, I have no doubt that I'd be in the same boat as my rural cousins.

(/end sob story)

Its no secret that lots of Maoris end up in prison. I read somewhere that it cost $86,000 a year to keep someone in prison. The Govt can either keep forking out $86K pa or they can address the root of the problem. To me it makes perfect sense to give a helping hand in the early stages and turn a potential drain on the economy into a contributing member.

However human nature dictates that all sorts of emotions arise when one gets a bigger slice than the other (like giving 2 children unequal ice creams). I have no idea whether this is due to our competitive nature, primal survival, greed, culture or what (I studied Comp Sci not Psych/Anthro) but this impulse reaction blinds people even if there is a logical reason (say one kid is bigger and needs more ice cream, or maybe he didn't have any breakfast?), it doesn't matter even if there are long term benefits - all that matters is that you get the same amount or he doesn't get it at all.

I have no faith in Don Brash, not because he wants to remove these privileges but because he is willing to prey on these natural instincts, aggrevate the situation and throw away the progress of politicians before him all for the sake of personal/political gain.

I fully agree that some Maoris are lazy and others are greedy. I see it within my own whanau but stopping race based privileges isn't going to fix the problem, only make it worse. If some are abusing it then the solution is tighter criteria/control not removal.

Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".

[James Deuce]

Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".

A perfect example of that is the Maori Health Initiatives that target health issues peculiar to Maori. On average a Maori male is twice as likely to die of heart disease as a NZ male of European descent and half as likely to receive help in the form of drugs and surgical treatment (like angioplasty).

Good idea to target the problem, educate, and where necessary medicate EARLY. Prevents long term health costs later on, and means that mokopunas get to get kicked around by koru a bit longer

[Ogri]

Actually I agree 100%.

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC

WO - Me thinks that's 'Yer Maun' the late, great Joey Dunlop at Ballaugh Bridge on the Island. Am I right?

[Jackrat]

Having just read of the Ngai Tahu approach I couldn't agree more.
The statement that they will not have any thing to do with race based privilages is the very reason why I was so unhappy with members of my own famiily for taking Maori affairs loans to by farm land.My own view was that if your not stupid or useless then why would you need a benifit unavailable to the rest of NZ.Of course this point of view makes me about as popular as a dog turd,but I'm used to that, so what the hell.
What a lot of people seem to have a problem with is separating the return of Iwi property and compensation for land theft,with race based privilages,they are not the same thing.What an Iwi does with land or money awarded them for what ever reason,has nothing to do with anybody but themselfs.
A system that awards people for claiming that due to their race they need a hand up can't last for long.Every Maori person that takes advantage of this system are doing their own people a diservice by making it appear that with out a hand up the whole race is incapable of standing on it's own two feet.
As a person of Part Maori heritage my self,I cannot support a system that assumes my people are stupid and need a hand out to servive.
Maybe Ngai Tahu should be put in charge of Maori affairs.
After all the Gov't hasn't got a fucking clue,and Don Brash is no better.

[mangell6]

Quick note, longer one coming

Jackrat stop clarifying the issues, they are all meant to be left in a big lump so that "we" can get all upset and abuse everyone

There was an article in the herald about Maori landowners at Raglan and how they were stopping people walking over their land to get to the beach/surf. The land owners were maori and they were stopping people from getting to the Raglan foreshore. Yeah Right! The land was not "Maori land" and anyone who asked to cross the property to get to the beach was granted permission. All those who didn't want to ask got upset when the property owners yelled at them to get off their property.

[mangell6]

Apologies in advance for the length of the post and fir it being disjointed.

Here are a couple of statements that are factual.

The Maori concept of ownership is vastly different to the European concept of ownership.

One group of invaders (british) signed an agreement with the then Inhabitants (maori).

Greedy people and politicians got the rules changed that economically advantaged themselves.

Greedy indivuduals created situations that caused lands to be confiscated.

In the eighties the then Government decided that it would sell the countries assets.

The Maori concept of ownership is vastly different to the European concept of ownership. It needs repeating.

The media is selling a product and it ain't the news!

Humans are lazy - Who won't take a hand out if it is offered!

======

Who has read the 'alternate' history of NZ? I had a boss who was an old english Sargent Major he had a copy of a small book that outlined the background to some of the events that occured in NZ in the 1800s. This one talks about the two men who had a big hand in creating the Bank of NZ, had a big hand in the Waikato wars, and who got bailed out by the NSW Government. It also talks about the law changes that occured to prevent Maori from owning and sailing ships - can't recall exactly but to sail a ship you had to be/have a ships Master/Captain, to be a Master/Captain you had to be a landowner . . . . . land is "owned" by the hapu/iwi not by the individual. BoP Maori traded with Auckland, using sailing ships and canoes.

I watched on the history channel how the Celts, also an agarian culture, were conquored by the invaders, the Maori were never conquored, the invaders choose to have an agreement with them.

Governments, especially 'socialist ones' have a habit of knowing what its best for you. When local Hapu and Iwi started Te Kohanga Reo it spread very quickly through out the Maori communities, there was no assistance from Government as it did not fit in with the European style education model nor the Goverment policies and handouts. Later on the Government realised that these Kohangas were getting a bit too wide spread so a law was passed that redefined 'pre-schools' and required that there be "trained" and "certified" educators. This caused many Kohangas serious problems as the reason they were set up in the first instance was that there were no TeReo teachers in schools. (Don't go on about the tokenism that existed in the education system at the time.)

Helen Clarke will not allow Maori or any other group to be self-sufficient, study her own ancestory and values, this is something that she inherited. Don Brash wants National to be the next Government, hence his speech. Both parties conduct polls to gauge public opinion and they manipulate the media accordingly.

I like how the media whips up emotion, comparing "generalities" to "specifics" to "prove" how wrong/unfair/damaging, etc the generality is. The Listener article, spoken of in an earlier post, is a case in point taking a general statement and applying it to one iwi to whom it does not apply, by implication the general statement is therefore wrong.

Unless you as an individual can understand and appreciate what it actually means to BOTH sides an accurate assessment cannot be made.

Lower socio-ecomonic groups are generally the group that is in the minority, this applies to a lot of things even 'drivers'. Check out the race of the so called 'worst' NZ drivers, are they the majority of NZ drivers.

=====

Well I'm Maori and I'm all for race based privileges because I consider myself to be one of the success stories.


Race based privilege doesn't mean "he gets this because hes a different colour". It means "he gets this because his kind need more help than you do and in the long run it'll pay off".

HO-Hoon good on you, you are one of many whose parents recognised that to get out of the 'poverty trap' you needed to take advantage of the opportunities offered. My parents had the same attitude and four of the five of us kids took the (different) opportunities that were offered us. The other liked it there and has stayed.

I was just watching a program on TV that was talking about the "untouchables" (who don't officially exist) in India. This group of society has granted special dispensation in the form of 'quotas' to gain education and employment. Education in the form that 'ex' number student positions are reserved for them and 'ex' number of Government jobs are also reserved for the untouchables. ALL Indian public schools must provide them with education, however this doesn't really work in outlying areas. The program put in place is paying dividends but "to change 15 centuries of culture is a slow process"

I'm also one of the hated White middle class New Zealanders

Jim2 Its worse than that for you (and me) you are also a MAN!!!!

Disclaimer: To my knowledge I have no Maori heritage I only have Jewish German (Eastern), Celtic (Scots), Anglo (no saxon) heritage.

[bondagebunny]

if they had the balls to finish the job during the maori wars we would not be in this shit today - so the government should claim from them all the ocsts and payouts on the basis that they were too lily livered to wipe out the problem before it became one.

[Lou Girardin]

My Grandfather and many of his mates were interned on Soames Island during WW2.
My Grandmothers land was taken under the Public Works Act for college extensions in Johnsonville. She received a pittance and most of the land was not used.
Who the hell do I claim from? Will the Waitangi Tribunal hear a claim from the Ngati Italiano?
Lou

[Jackrat]

ALL of the people who came to NZ all came here of their own free will.They all could of gone somewhere else.regardless of who they were running away from.If any of their off spring have a problem with how their ancestors were treated two hundred years ago,they could all fuck off back there and have a moan.GOOD LUCK.The old Maori did not have the luxury of running away and their off spring of today are standing up for them selfs on a number of fronts.
It never fails to amaze me that people can run from agression in their own land an then atempt to do the same thing to the people of the land they arrive at, as was done to them.My own Irish ancestors came to NZ to escape the situation created by the english in their home country,a situation created I might point out by the english church.On arrival in NZ they were taken in by NGA PUHI and married into Wha hau.It wasn't very long before they saw the english trying on the same old crap here as they did in the old country.At this stage they joined in the struggle against the english.The english did not present a treaty because they were nice guys,they did it because they were loseing the armed struggle.And we all know what a crock of shit the treaty turned out to be.Even today in typical english style the treaty is being twisted to mean any number of things,very little of what the Maori who signed it imagined it would mean.Today we have the situation that when Ever
an Iwi or Maori in general manage to claw back a little of what was stolen,The ancestors of those who never stood up for themselfs in their own countrys and then stole from the people of their new country,are all geting their knickers in a twist.So bondage bunny where are you and your kind going to run next,and do you think you will be made welcome.The poms ain't going to save your ass this time.

[bondagebunny]

aint going to run anywhere - Born Here so is as much my country as any maori born after the end of the land wars.
My point was the english were leiniant with the maori - in other countries invading forces (yes the brits were) wiped out the natives. THey didnt fuk about signing treaties Mind you that is what the maori did to the native Mori Ori here when they arrived.

Take no prisioners, sign no treaty, slash and burn is the only way to take over a country. anything less will result in trouble in the future.

better still dont invade anyone - stay on your own side of the fence