Police must take some blame, says dead boy's sister

**yod** · 13th August 2007, 23:51

Originally Posted by Manxman

...apologies. My presumption is based on a 30sec google research of Stats NZ...
"Christian religions:* In the 2006 Census, just over 2 million people, or 55.6 percent of those answering the religious affiliation question, affiliated with a Christian religion (including Māori Christian). This compares with the 2001 Census, when 60.6 percent of people affiliated with a Christian religion."

Therefore, a) the majority; b) of kiwis; c) are Christian.

Helen Clark (the master, nay mistress...nay keep master...of PC) would have us believe that NZ is not a Christian society. Apologies (again), but it is. Really. Push comes to shove, NZ is a secular, but Christian majority, country.

BTW(1) I can imagine the outcry if an atheism week were promoted, and I also presume to know who that outcry would come from...the same people who promote mainstream PC sh*te in the first place.

What it also is, is secular - which is the point I am presuming you wish to make. I am all for mutual respect and understanding, but I'm not seeing a helluva lot of luv coming back t'other way right now...my point is it's all one way traffic.

This govt is trying to be all things to all minorities, and progressively marginalising the majority in the process. (General question, to all male readers). What about promoting men's issues (hell, even feeling good about being a man), boys education lagging behind girls, teaching respect for parents/authority figures, personal responsibility, don't run from the law...hell don't even get in a car that you're not qualified to drive...the right to discipline your own child, the right for the majority to say "ok dude, that's enough PC sh*te, start sticking to your knitting". Hell I could go on and on...

Religion is a dangerous topic (the cause of many significant wars wouldn't you know...there's definitely an irony in that), of which I know little (clearly) and, even less understand. Therefore, I will leave you all to it

...good luck.

BTW(2), I'm a Jedi...

BTW(3), I'm not radical, extremist, racist, sexist, ultra right wing, or any of that nonsense, but hell you can sort of understand why some people get that way!!

BTW(4) I just know I'm gonna get some serious sh*t back on this, but it's how I feel and I definitely feel better for it....respect that! hehehehe

good answer - i appreciate your logic and candour

but - 'affiliation' is a decidedly ambiguous term - i would be interested to see what the stats are on 'practicing' christians - my guess is it would considerably lower than 50% - how many young people consider themselves 'affiliated' because their parents have been cramming the 'good book' down their throat since day dot, even though it seems completely at odds with the vast proportion of the studies they undertake right from the primary level through to the tertiary?

i suspect the outcry over an atheism week would almost definitely come from more than the liberal left, namely the conservative right, which most, if not all, religions would strongly adhere to

and finally, you, good sir, are dead right; religion is a dangerous topic; religious ideology has a dangerously retrograde effect upon the modern world, unfortunately it is a difficult undertaking to rid the world of a concept that has held cultural roots for millenia, no matter how antiquated and inconceivable

**howdamnhard** · 13th August 2007, 23:55

Nicely said Manxman

Originally Posted by Manxman

...apologies. My presumption is based on a 30sec google research of Stats NZ...
"Christian religions:* In the 2006 Census, just over 2 million people, or 55.6 percent of those answering the religious affiliation question, affiliated with a Christian religion (including Māori Christian). This compares with the 2001 Census, when 60.6 percent of people affiliated with a Christian religion."

Therefore, a) the majority; b) of kiwis; c) are Christian.

Helen Clark (the master, nay mistress...nay keep master...of PC) would have us believe that NZ is not a Christian society. Apologies (again), but it is. Really. Push comes to shove, NZ is a secular, but Christian majority, country.

BTW(1) I can imagine the outcry if an atheism week were promoted, and I also presume to know who that outcry would come from...the same people who promote mainstream PC sh*te in the first place.

What it also is, is secular - which is the point I am presuming you wish to make. I am all for mutual respect and understanding, but I'm not seeing a helluva lot of luv coming back t'other way right now...my point is it's all one way traffic.

This govt is trying to be all things to all minorities, and progressively marginalising the majority in the process. (General question, to all male readers). What about promoting men's issues (hell, even feeling good about being a man), boys education lagging behind girls, teaching respect for parents/authority figures, personal responsibility, don't run from the law...hell don't even get in a car that you're not qualified to drive...the right to discipline your own child, the right for the majority to say "ok dude, that's enough PC sh*te, start sticking to your knitting". Hell I could go on and on...

Religion is a dangerous topic (the cause of many significant wars wouldn't you know...there's definitely an irony in that), of which I know little (clearly) and, even less understand. Therefore, I will leave you all to it

...good luck.

BTW(2), I'm a Jedi...

BTW(3), I'm not radical, extremist, racist, sexist, ultra right wing, or any of that nonsense, but hell you can sort of understand why some people get that way!!

BTW(4) I just know I'm gonna get some serious sh*t back on this, but it's how I feel and I definitely feel better for it....respect that! hehehehe

**howdamnhard** · 13th August 2007, 23:56

Nicely said Manxman

[QUOTE=Manxman;1170581]...apologies. My presumption is based on a 30sec google research of Stats NZ...
"Christian religions:* In the 2006 Census, just over 2 million people, or 55.6 percent of those answering the religious affiliation question, affiliated with a Christian religion (including Māori Christian). This compares with the 2001 Census, when 60.6 percent of people affiliated with a Christian religion."

Therefore, a) the majority; b) of kiwis; c) are Christian.

Helen Clark (the master, nay mistress...nay keep master...of PC) would have us believe that NZ is not a Christian society. Apologies (again), but it is. Really. Push comes to shove, NZ is a secular, but Christian majority, country.

BTW(1) I can imagine the outcry if an atheism week were promoted, and I also presume to know who that outcry would come from...the same people who promote mainstream PC sh*te in the first place.

What it also is, is secular - which is the point I am presuming you wish to make. I am all for mutual respect and understanding, but I'm not seeing a helluva lot of luv coming back t'other way right now...my point is it's all one way traffic.

This govt is trying to be all things to all minorities, and progressively marginalising the majority in the process. (General question, to all male readers). What about promoting men's issues (hell, even feeling good about being a man), boys education lagging behind girls, teaching respect for parents/authority figures, personal responsibility, don't run from the law...hell don't even get in a car that you're not qualified to drive...the right to discipline your own child, the right for the majority to say "ok dude, that's enough PC sh*te, start sticking to your knitting". Hell I could go on and on...

Religion is a dangerous topic (the cause of many significant wars wouldn't you know...there's definitely an irony in that), of which I know little (clearly) and, even less understand. Therefore, I will leave you all to it

...good luck.

**slowpoke** · 14th August 2007, 01:31

And what the fuck has any PC or religious shite got to do with this thread? My KB GPS has given me a bum steer 'cos I seem to have totally lost the connection.....

**candor** · 14th August 2007, 05:44

Personally I reckon the sister is right and showing surprising clarity given the recentness.

Agree media was intrusive - maybe that's good to warn others, maybe not.
Don't think this has anything to do with PC. It has to do with that we're bush.

There is no rational reason for half the chases that are going on. Plenty of logic, research and experience built up by Police forces around the world show that entering into them over minor stuff especially where youth are involved is sheer foolishness. It generally worsens the safety equation.

Ok sometimes not chasing may be the wrong call or an unlucky one - happened in Taranaki where a drunk was let go and he happened to kill a few people. But the odds are in most similar situations that it is BETTER BY FAR Nnot to chase even an impaired driver.

Their crash risk though they are likely to crash seriously every three thousand odd drunk k's is gonna get even higher if chased.

Its nothing about PC or criminals "rights' - it's about plain maths and respect for all road usetrs lives including the Polices own.

Runners generally aren't stopping types (surveys of captured ones say their state of mind is that they were never gonna stop). So all you get is two dangerous missiles on the road and likely for a longer time than if you just let the first one go, and catch em later using plates (or not).

The jury is in - overseas forces use way more restrictive policies and there is less death to ALL road users. In other words more law and order.

Would you think its the runners fault and pat the cop on the back for ensuring he issues a ticket if a chase killed your pedestrian kid or ummmm maybe you as an involuntary passenger?

The NZ scene is aggravating this with many young drivers, many breaching gdls and the boy racer laws.

It's no coincidence that increased enforcement preceded this trend - 100 extra cops on traffic duty thanks to nz first. Some need guidelines based on the bad toll stats and thats really cos conditions in the operating environment have changed a lot recently I think.

"You've got to know when the hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run"

**devnull** · 14th August 2007, 07:43

All the police need to do is say that if you're gonna run, it better be faster than 300m/s, 'cos thats how fast the bullet that'll be chasing you will go

Seems like there's no such thing as personal responsibility any more...

**ynot slow** · 14th August 2007, 07:43

[QUOTE=Sanx;1170536]Why just religions? Why not just be respectful of people?

Off topic but my thoughts are;religion has seemed to me to be the one thing that starts wars

**Pumba** · 14th August 2007, 07:52

Wow thats not bad I post about a Car crash and it turns into he Scotish Thread

, BRING BACK ZED

**ynot slow** · 14th August 2007, 07:53

Simple solution maybe,cops get rego,go to house of owner find who was driving,take license away for good.Part of having a license is obeying the rules,that is stop for flashing red lights,be it cops,fire engines,ambos or train signals.These clowns no doubt would've stopped for all of them but the cops.

Agree that maybe these idiots won't stop,the adrenelin flowing and the chase is cool to them,the only way they would stop is crash or get away or cops giving up first,yep I'd be pissed if my family was killed through police chase gone wrong,or if my kids were in a car being chased,and driver didn't stop.

**Albino** · 14th August 2007, 08:04

My initial reaction is that it serves him right and the police have to chase otherwise people will do more runners.

But I am a little unsure about the policy of high speed pursuits. Like Candor said, once a pursuit starts it is very likely that there will be an accident. Personally I don’t mind if it is the fleeing driver that gets hurt, but I’d have thought the priority would be protecting other innocent road users.

The counter argument is that if he was driving this fast then he could have crashed and killed someone anyway. The difference is in the likelihood. He was probably driving at 95% of his ability before the chase. During the chase it was more likely to be 120% and his chances of crashing significantly higher.

That’s not to mention the police vehicle now travelling at fatal speeds. From what I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong here local coppas) the police drivers have one or two days training for high speed driving skills, half of which takes place in a classroom. Half the riders on this site who ride regularly and do track days five times a year are probably more qualified to handle those speeds. (subjective comment to illustrate point)

And BTW I don’t buy the excuse that he may have been escaping from a burglary or driving drunk. So what. Why do I say that? Because if he was apprehended for either of those then the chances are he’d be back on the streets next week because the system seems incapable of dealing to these people properly. So stopping him tonight means a one in 365 reduction in the time on the road this year. Is that worth killing my family? Not sure.

**Pumba** · 14th August 2007, 08:05

Short of sounding like a politician here, it seems that most pepole that have posted agree that there are some serious issues out there in the way people take responsibility for there own actions, I have to ask this

WHAT THE HELL WILL MAKE IT CHANGE

How do we as a culture impliment the changes that are required in order to ensure more shit like this doesnt happen, cause I dont think anything Uncle Helen or here goon squad in Wellington do is going to make fuck all difference, and I very much doubt any change of leadership is going to make any difference either.

I dont know maybe re implmenting corperal punishment in both the school and justice systems (please note I was Schooled after the cain and such things were discountinued, but my old man at home was afraid to use his boot!!) or bring back compulery military service, so these people can be taught respect for authority might be the way.

And the attitude of the media is an issue I have got no answers for.

Maybe im just and Idealist, thinking of time long gone where kids respected there pearents, one another and the general world around them, wearnt afraid of a bit of hard work and most important of all had respect.

**Albino** · 14th August 2007, 08:14

Originally Posted by Pumba

Short of sounding like a politician here, it seems that most pepole that have posted agree that there are some serious issues out there in the way people take responsibility for there own actions, I have to ask this

WHAT THE HELL WILL MAKE IT CHANGE

I agree and it is a tricky one.

But the thing that will have the most chance of changing this is if enough kiwis make it their personal responsibility to do something about it.

But we problably won't because we're an apathetic lot. But this aversion to action in our society is maybe one of the causes. We complain about lack of personal responsiblity then shrug our shoulders when it comes time to do something about it - we are part of society and we are responsible.

How many people who have complained about this have written letters to MPs and opposition candidates? Standard answer - that's not going to do anything so why bother.

Ok, so who's organising the protest march and once it's organised who's going to attend? Standard answer - I can't make it at that time.

Keep complaining and discussing on KB and at the water cooler, but it needs to be followed up with some action.

Anyone up for a riot?

**scumdog** · 14th August 2007, 08:22

Good old KB!!

I cannot believe the clap-trap from some of the posts here - Police shouldn't chase - duh!

Fucking cretins who O.D. on PS2 and crap like that shouldn't have a frickin' licence or car would be more like it.

I've seen a lot of younger boy-racer types drive and most are crap drivers - they can wind the car up through the gears in a hurry (most of the time) but one thing is sure - they have no idea when it comes to judging speeds, road conditions and perceived dangers, why? because they're dicks with little real driver training/experience and an inflated ego.

So the ideas of the bleeding hearts is that "should any car attempt in any way to out-pace a police vehicle with blue and red flashing that is following it then said police vehicle should immediatley pull over and cease to follow the departing car"
Bloody brilliant - even MORE driving dorks will attempt to get away - after all the brainless slack-jawed mouthbreathers already beleive that urban myth "If you go over 160kph the cops have to call the chase off"!!

Doncha just love Tuesdays on KB??

**Paul in NZ** · 14th August 2007, 08:34

The sister is 19 years old (from memory) and just lost her brother... Hardly in a fit state to be quoted by headline hungry media is she? She has a point, the issue should be debated but ultimately our youngsters need to realise the implications of living in a free society where you have choices and living with the consequences of those choices...