Flashing stop lights, traffic light triggers, and wheel lights

[notme]

Hey all, forgive my laziness but I'm just going to cut n paste what i've sent off the the LTSA - it should have enough info to explain the title of this post i hope! :-)

Looking for feedback from the KB community as to the rules if anyone knows (we need a reference to actual documents though not just anecdotal - this is important if we go ahead and sell the products mentioned below!) and also if anyone has used any similar products please tell us how they worked for ya. cheers!



----------------------PASTED EMAIL TO THE LTSA---------------------
Hi,

could this email please be passed to the appropriate people to answer the questions below:

The company I work for develops electronic products - quite a few of these are automotive products. We are looking at developing a couple of motorcycle based products, and have some questions regarding the laws relating to the proposed products.

We have used the LTSA site and contacted various WOF and licensing agents, however no one has been able to give a definitive answer to these questions although there has been a lot of anecdotal advice given to us. We would be very appreciative if the LTSA couuld provide answers with references to the relevant acts, laws, or sections of the road code.

The questions are as follows:

1. The first product we would like to develop is a unit that flashes the rear stop light of a motorcycle (it could be applied to cars as well). The unit would flash the stop light say twice or 3 times, then light the stop light continuously. The only reference to the regulations for this we can find is in this document: http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rul...ting-2004.html in section 2.1(3). Is this rule the final word on the subject or is there as it says, another rule somewhere that supercedes this one? Similar products are available and legal in other coutries, for example: http://www.webbikeworld.com/Reviewed...p/visistop.htm


2. The second product would be a device to trigger traffic light road sensors - most likely it would be a simple magnet similar to: http://www.greenlightstuff.com/trigger.html. Are devices like this legal? If a simple magnet such as this is legal, what about an electromagnet that can be switched on and off? There is more info here: http://motorcycles.about.com/cs/begi...atraflight.htm

3. The final product is similar to the "firefly" as described here: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/edgeouts...apfivastl.html are these devices legal for cars/motorbikes in NZ? The document here: http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rul...ting-2004.html doesn't mention wheel lights specifically..... additionally, what colours would be allowed for this type of device? i.e. would red be disallowed because the rules currently state that red lights must only face rearward?


Thanks in advance!



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--------------END PASTED EMAIL--------------------------

[Coyote]

Traffic Light Trigger sounds good. I'ld buy one, depending on the legality

[notme]

I can't see why LTSA would have a problem with that particular one, since most likely it just needs to be a bigass magnet mounted under the bike somewhere....

I am investigating that one right now actually, just been for a ride down the road to a particularly sucky set of lights in Mt Wellington.....results of first experiment: TOTAL FAILURE.....bugger. :-)

[XTC]

We imported a stop light flasher in the early nineties.... Couldn't sell the things or give them away.

[notme]

Really? Oh well, that´s another sneaky reason for my posting here of course - market research! :-) Tell ya what - I will be the first to install my traffic light trigger when i get the bastard working....

[wkid_one]

Don't install FireFly type lights - they are known to rapidly and spontaneously deflate tyres. Not a good thing on bikes.

Magnet light triggers would be good - but aren't some set off by weight thereby making this 'tool' redundant?

And - the problem with a flashing rear light is that if you are hard on the picks - yet the driver sees your lights flash on and off - he/she is likely to think you are just tapping your brakes and delay their reaction time and before you know it - they are parked up your sphincter having a good look at your rectum (darn near kill'm)

But good ideas none the same

[notme]

Magnet light triggers would be good - but aren't some set off by weight thereby making this 'tool' redundant?

Almost all lights in NZ are either simple phase timed patterns, or inductive loop sensors. The better sets ("better" means they have been classed as more important and therefore have had more money spent on them) are both - they go thru timed phases but have an override algorithm that tries to change the phase timing so that if one direction is waaaay busy it gets slightly higher priority. Interesting side note - in the states they have technology to allow emergency vehicles to carry a transciever that causes the lights in the ambo or firey's path to go green - have you heard of that at all FireFight mate?

Anyway, there are very very few weight sensors - although Transit do own some that can dynamically measure a vehicle's weight WHILE it passes over the sensor....not as accurate as a proper weighbridge but still pretty amazing if you think about it!

And now reading back on this post I realise what an electronics geek i really am. Ah well, I spose at least your typical electronics geek doesn't turn up to work on a bike with full leathers covering the tattoos, and half deaf from playing in his metal band in town the night before.....


Please note i am still investigating this whole thing, it's a very preliminary product investigation at this stage. Just seeing what the interest is, and getting useful info like what wkid_one says about the FireFlys. :-)

[XTC]

Really? Oh well, that´s another sneaky reason for my posting here of course - market research! :-) Tell ya what - I will be the first to install my traffic light trigger when i get the bastard working....

any idea of price yet.....

[XTC]

Speedmedic.....
I was following an ambulance along the breakdown lane on the westen m/way once when I was young and stupid..... Couldn't see the cop parked on the side of the m/way till the ambulance went around him.... Luckily only got a warning.

[crashe]

I am assuming that you are talking about when bikes are sitting at a set of lights.... and they dont change at all unless a car comes along with it weight to help trigger it off...?

If so, I pulled up to my local set of lights yesterday and a guy was working on the lights... so sitting there I chatted to him, asking him to reset the trigger.... I was able to prove to him that the weight of my bike and me was not heavy enough to trigger it... I had sat there for two sets of lights....
He explained to me where to position the bike on the square that had a cut in the ground.... to park on it.... or on the side of it... I did this and still it didnt work, so he said that he would reset the lights.... he also knew what I meant as he too also rides bikes..... have yet to go back and test if he has done it...

Since then I have seen at most sets of lights a piece that has a square cut just before or on the white line on the road....

[ajturbo]

We need permission from motorways to use redchip/greenchip or breakdown lanes. (in each intance)
Unless its imminent life threatening then we advise comms we are using it and they let motorways know.... otherwise we are expected to sit in traffic like the rest of ya.

Funny how in peak hour traffic the patient condition "deteriorates" to the point we need to travel priority one ..
then they suddenly come right again!!

tools of the trade eh..... we all gota have em...

[notme]

any idea of price yet.....

It's far too early to be thinking of pricing yet - BUT, to be honest mate, I will probably use the fact that I have an electronics factory and a particularly bitchy set of traffic lights at my disposal at work, and abuse work time and resources in order to find out what type/strength/orientation of magnet works best and report back here for the benefit of us all. I don't really think there's a product there, unless it turns out that you need some very specific magnet that I find i can import cheaply

I was more thinking of the flashing light and or firefly-type thing as products you see, since they actually require some electronix. Although I have a sneaking suspicion that a pulsed electromagnet might work better than a permanent magnet for triggering lights - so the traffic light trigger might need some electronix after all, making it a "real" product. If that WAS the case though, I'd have to check that option out very carefully with the LTSA because it becomes an active device interferring with the road sensors.

I am assuming that you are talking about when bikes are sitting at a set of lights.... and they dont change at all unless a car comes along with it weight to help trigger it off...?

If so, I pulled up to my local set of lights yesterday and a guy was working on the lights... so sitting there I chatted to him, asking him to reset the trigger.... I was able to prove to him that the weight of my bike and me was not heavy enough to trigger it... I had sat there for two sets of lights....
He explained to me where to position the bike on the square that had a cut in the ground.... to park on it.... or on the side of it... I did this and still it didnt work, so he said that he would reset the lights.... he also knew what I meant as he too also rides bikes..... have yet to go back and test if he has done it...

I don't mean to question the tech that was working on the lights, but I'd be very surprised if the lights you're talking about were on weight triggers.

The cheapest, most reliable (in overall terms...) and most versatile option for traffic light sensing is the use of inductive loops.
It's a common misconception that a vehicle's weight triggers the lights - so here's how it really works if you're interested - warning, the following may cause extreme boredom in non - geeks ....

Next time you are out and about, look at the road in each lane in front of the lights, about a metre before the stop lines. If the lights are on inductive loop sensors (90% chance of that!) you'll see where 2 squares have been cut out of the road. Under the squares are loops of wire, typically 3 or 4 loops. Now, these loops of wire form air-cored inductors, and if we pass current through the inductors at a given frequency, we will get a certain signal as an output. When a large ferromagnetic mass (i.e. a vehicle) stops over or near the inductor, this output signal changes, and voila - we can say that a vehicle is stopped at the lights and then take appropriate action. This is a very very simplified explanation, there are many other variables that are just not appropriate to this forum, but the important point is that the sensors are usually calibrated to trigger when anything larger than a small car is present.

So, when our bikes hit the sensors, they quite often will not trigger because a) the mass of steel in a bike is far less than that in a car (duh)
b) if you're on a modern sportbike, you probably have very little steel in the thing anyway, it's more likely to be aluminium and other alloys which don't trip the sensors so well.

The idea of either the permanent magnet or the electromagnet idea is to fool the sensor into thinking that a big enough mass of ferromagnetic material is in the area to make it trigger, so that us bikers can be on our merry way!

In theory, the best place to be to trigger the sensor is on the middle join of the cutouts in the road, i.e. right in the middle of the lane. But you'll probably find from experience as I have, that if a sensor is goint to detect you it is going to work whether you're in the middle or off to one side, and if it's going to ignore you then it doesn't matter where you are :-( This is what happens to me most mornings in mount wellington.....dammit. Well let's just call that MOTIVATION shall we? ;-)

[crashe]

ummm maybe I didnt explain it correctly...... but what you said about the cut out bits is what this dude was talking about.... and it still didnt work for me when he pointed out where to put the bike.... so thats why he said that he would reset it.... so they must be able to do reset it from the side of the road....

[Gixxer 4 ever]

so here's how it really works if you're interested - warning, the following may cause extreme boredom in non - geeks .... ;-)

Thanks for that. It was very enlightening. If you had not posted this info I was going to ask you about it. So the problem with the magnet is ? Size required or ( and I know little of these things ) the frequency of the field from different magnets or magnet types?

[notme]

Thanks for that. It was very enlightening. If you had not posted this info I was going to ask you about it. So the problem with the magnet is ? Size required or ( and I know little of these things ) the frequency of the field from different magnets or magnet types?

A permanent magnet (i.e. "normal magnet") has a steady magnetic field around it. Remember, what we need to do is cause enough of a disturbance to the road sensor's magnetic field to make it trigger - with a permanent magnet this happens because Lenz's law says that any change in the magnetic environment of a coil of wire will cause a voltage to be induced in the coil. So the only things we can change with permanent magnets are the strength of the magnet which is usually determined by it's type, (ceramic, rare earth, etc) and the orientation of the magnet and thus it's field.

Over the weekend I have been trying different magnets from the stock at work and riding through the lights that give me trouble...but it's a long slow process cos i have to go thru without the magnet a couple of times following the exact same line, then with the magnet, then with the magnet in a different position or orientation..... yeah it's gonna take a while

The other method i am thinking of is to have an electromagnet (basically a magnet you can switch on an off) and pulse it at the right frequency to cause the most disturbance to the road sensor.

Some more interesting facts: in some states in the USA, cyclists or motorcyclists are allowed to run a red light under strict conditions (right turn only i think) if they wait thru 3 cycles of the lights without a green.
Also, over there they often have lines marked on the road at intersections that show where a bike should stop to give the best chance of triggering the lights. I've never seen that anywhere in NZ..... anyone seen this practice?

One final tip - another thing you can try if you're stuck at some lights is to kill the engine then start it up again - the spraying electromagnetic field generated by your starter motor will sometimes trigger the lights. This works better if you stop right on the edge of the sensor cutout.....


Hang on, check out this ASCII art:

INTERSECTION

|========== |
|...........|
|*|...|...|*| <----stop in either of the places marked with a *
||....|...|| i.e. on the cutout line in the road, at the front
||___ |___|| edge of the box.
|.......... |
|...........|
|...........|
|...........|


heheh well that didn't come out too good...the forum strips out too many spaces! but hopefully you get the idea !

But as crashe says, some sets of lights just will not go no mattter where you are on the road - they can be affected by things like rebars in nearby concrete, big plates in the road nearby like manhole covers, or they might simply be out of adjustment -the wheatstone bridges that drive the sensors can drift over time because of sunspots, littel green men...whatever! I have called up the local council before and asked if they'd go and look at certain sets of lights if enough bikers told them it was a problem......basic answer from three different area councils was "no, piss off buddy" so I'm pursuing this other method now.