ACC ACCidentally discloses intention to become an insurance company

[mashman]

You become part of the process known as natural selection. Animals sacrifice the weak out of the heard.
It's how we look after ours that sets us apart.... except for

I thought that's what the Darwin Awards were for!!! but was thinking the exact same thing...

[GOONR]

I have received the same standard response acknowledging my submission. The two things that I immediately picked up on were:

1. With the number of submissions they have received, they would not have sufficient time to read and catalogue all submissions, let alone formulate any recommendations based on those submissions. This is strong evidence that the submission process is a sham.

2. I decided to google the two words ACC Insurance, and on the links brought up by google was this:

But when I clicked on the link it took me to the ACC home page where the sentence had changed to this:

There is no mention of insurance anywhere on the ACC home page.

If you right click on the ACC home page and view the source you get...

META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme provides 24-hour no-fault personal accident insurance cover."

[Bald Eagle]

If you right click on the ACC home page and view the source you get...

META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme provides 24-hour no-fault personal accident insurance cover."

Yeah love the 'no fault' in that statement.

[Winston001]

Insurance financial model = fully funded liability. Hence why they want billions.

Compensation = Pay as you go financial model. Hence the 700 million profit for a Government department that should be run with balanced books.

Oh alright, I'll bite.

The fully funded ACC model was adopted nearly 10 years ago. Yes it was a big change from levy-and-pay-as-you-go. Yes it fits insurance models more closely because the scheme now aims to have enough money to pay existing claims into the distant future.

The reason is the number of working people to pay for all of this is shrinking as a proportion of the total population. If we don't build up a resource now, our kids are going to say "Sod this" and cut ACC off in 20 years.

We have done exactly the same with the Cullen Fund and Kiwisaver which could equally be called Pension Insurance. All of this seems prudent forward thinking.

Do you know of any other form of insurance (as distinct from assurance) that stands outside the law of tort?

Yes. In the United States workers have Unemployment Insurance. This pays them a reduced wage for a defined period. When it runs out, they go onto Welfare which is lower and taxpayer funded.

[FastBikeGear]

If you right click on the ACC home page and view the source you get...

META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme provides 24-hour no-fault personal accident insurancecover."

I rang ACC on their comlaints line todya (0800 650 2220 To query why Keith McLea ihas signed an email addressed to me, Keith McLea, General Manager, ACC Insurance.

At first it was evident that neither the help desk or the complaints desk had ever heard of ACC Insurance.

After a short wait on hold, I was told that this is his official title in their internal directory and that he is the General Manager of their Inusrance Department.

The two staff I spoke to were suprised to discover that they now have an insurance department. I asked what the Insurance Department did and they had no idea.

I asked what insurance they provide, Can I get a quote for their premiums, etc and they weren't aware that they provided any insurance.

I sugested to them that if you sign yourself off as ACC Inurance you would expect that you would be providing Insurance or are intending to otherwise it is misleading.

I also suggested that if ACC Insurance is just a department Why doesn't he sign off Keith McLea, General Manager, ACC Insurance Dept, ACC?

The complaints staff seemed somewhat puzzled and concerned that ACC now has an Insurance Department. It was evidently news to them.

They have put in a request for me to get a written response to my questions. I think they are also interested in the answer.

[James Deuce]

Oh alright, I'll bite.

The fully funded ACC model was adopted nearly 10 years ago. Yes it was a big change from levy-and-pay-as-you-go. Yes it fits insurance models more closely because the scheme now aims to have enough money to pay existing claims into the distant future.

The reason is the number of working people to pay for all of this is shrinking as a proportion of the total population. If we don't build up a resource now, our kids are going to say "Sod this" and cut ACC off in 20 years.

We have done exactly the same with the Cullen Fund and Kiwisaver which could equally be called Pension Insurance. All of this seems prudent forward thinking.



Yes. In the United States workers have Unemployment Insurance. This pays them a reduced wage for a defined period. When it runs out, they go onto Welfare which is lower and taxpayer funded.

The average US citizen does not have the tax burden that the average Kiwi does. Income Tax will not reduce when ACC goes. You can bite as much as you want - instant change to a fully funded model for a minority section of the NZ public breaks the covenant established with the NZ public when we lost the right to sue in exchange for a compensation model. Even when ACC goes, I don't see the right to sue being re-established meaningfully for the "average" person. The Justice system is overwhelmed right now without adding that burden.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I can't afford to pay for any more insurance, and I certainly can't afford the legal battle and most of time involved in establishing blame and compensation from the party causing the problem.

The fully funded model was adopted 10 years ago and levies were set and maintained that would have the scheme fully funded by 2020 without establishing an onerous burden on the population. In fact I think Labour may have even brought that back to 2019. They didn't at any point try to extract more ACC money from one section of public, and if I remember correctly the ACC levy for motorcycles went down under Labour.

You seem to have this attitude that it's OK for the privileged to have the lfe style they want, but the rest of the drones who weren't good enough to get themselves a decent earner should just go to and from work and sut up and eat their gruel.

I'm not going ot get to retire and now you want me to reduce my standard of living as a reward?

I've just been looking at moving overseas, investigating jobs in Europe, the US, Australia, and the middle east. I forgot that having a disabled child means that option isn't avaialble, so I can't evebn fuck off to somewhere that I have a reasonable chance of maintaining my current lifestyle.

Yes, I'm bitter. I have vastly more at stake than you. I'm trapped, and all I can see is lifelong debt, and a rapidly diminishing quality of life. My bills go up, the tax take goes up, publicly funded service delivery reducing in quality and quantity every year, and inflation and recession ensure that wages for my particular job are trending down while I have to compete with ever younger job entrants with worthless qualifications and no work ethic. Public schooling for my disabled child gets further out of reach and because we are legally bound to provide an education my highly qualified, highly experienced wife can't go back to work because we'll be home schooling.

And someone wants to make sure that I can't even afford the free positive attitude adjustment of travelling to and from work by motorcycle every day.

The Lassez Faire, 'Let Them Eat Cake" attitude of NZ's politicians and Business "leaders" toward people like me is going to earn them the eventual negative attitude adjustment they deserve.

[Winston001]

You can bite as much as you want - instant change to a fully funded model for a minority section of the NZ public breaks the covenant established with the NZ public when we lost the right to sue in exchange for a compensation model.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I can't afford to pay for any more insurance, and I certainly can't afford the legal battle and most of time involved in establishing blame and compensation from the party causing the problem.

You seem to have this attitude that it's OK for the privileged to have the lfe style they want, but the rest of the drones who weren't good enough to get themselves a decent earner should just go to and from work and sut up and eat their gruel.

I've just been looking at moving overseas, investigating jobs in Europe, the US, Australia, and the middle east. I forgot that having a disabled child means that option isn't avaialble, so I can't even fuck off to somewhere that I have a reasonable chance of maintaining my current lifestyle.

Yes, I'm bitter. I have vastly more at stake than you. I'm trapped, and all I can see is lifelong debt, and a rapidly diminishing quality of life......

And someone wants to make sure that I can't even afford the free positive attitude adjustment of travelling to and from work by motorcycle every day.

Well said Jim. I apologise for giving you the impression that I don't care. Essentially its my nature to argue in opposition to accepted positions. If our discussion was pro-ACC I'd be arguing against it - to make people think and consider other points of view.

I'm very suspicious of the ACC data and very unhappy with the huge increase in ACC registration on motorcycles. ACC is a good system. I don't understand why NZ stands alone in the world. The Scandinavian countries were considering a similar scheme but I don't know how far that has gone.

You have my deepest respect coping with a disabled child and the thought of having one refreshing aspect of your life - motorcycling - put out of reach, seems just wrong.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

I'm not going ot get to retire and now you want me to reduce my standard of living as a reward?

...

Yes, I'm bitter. I have vastly more at stake than you. I'm trapped, and all I can see is lifelong debt, and a rapidly diminishing quality of life. My bills go up, the tax take goes up, publicly funded service delivery reducing in quality and quantity every year, and inflation and recession ensure that wages for my particular job are trending down while I have to compete with ever younger job entrants with worthless qualifications and no work ethic. Public schooling for my disabled child gets further out of reach and because we are legally bound to provide an education my highly qualified, highly experienced wife can't go back to work because we'll be home schooling.

And someone wants to make sure that I can't even afford the free positive attitude adjustment of travelling to and from work by motorcycle every day.

The Lassez Faire, 'Let Them Eat Cake" attitude of NZ's politicians and Business "leaders" toward people like me is going to earn them the eventual negative attitude adjustment they deserve.

well said... and with you 120%

[Grahameeboy]

All part of the exercise to destroy public health and Social Welfare systems and slide in an insurance based health system that enriches nobody except the insurance companies! 30% profits anyone???

The ultimate object, to turn the system into a mini-american nightmare!

Cunts!

Positive thoughts..I think it could be a great idea...and it will still be an Accident system as Health is already covered under Min. of Health

[Grahameeboy]

The average US citizen does not have the tax burden that the average Kiwi does. Income Tax will not reduce when ACC goes. You can bite as much as you want - instant change to a fully funded model for a minority section of the NZ public breaks the covenant established with the NZ public when we lost the right to sue in exchange for a compensation model. Even when ACC goes, I don't see the right to sue being re-established meaningfully for the "average" person. The Justice system is overwhelmed right now without adding that burden.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I can't afford to pay for any more insurance, and I certainly can't afford the legal battle and most of time involved in establishing blame and compensation from the party causing the problem.

The fully funded model was adopted 10 years ago and levies were set and maintained that would have the scheme fully funded by 2020 without establishing an onerous burden on the population. In fact I think Labour may have even brought that back to 2019. They didn't at any point try to extract more ACC money from one section of public, and if I remember correctly the ACC levy for motorcycles went down under Labour.

You seem to have this attitude that it's OK for the privileged to have the lfe style they want, but the rest of the drones who weren't good enough to get themselves a decent earner should just go to and from work and sut up and eat their gruel.

I'm not going ot get to retire and now you want me to reduce my standard of living as a reward?

I've just been looking at moving overseas, investigating jobs in Europe, the US, Australia, and the middle east. I forgot that having a disabled child means that option isn't avaialble, so I can't evebn fuck off to somewhere that I have a reasonable chance of maintaining my current lifestyle.

Yes, I'm bitter. I have vastly more at stake than you. I'm trapped, and all I can see is lifelong debt, and a rapidly diminishing quality of life. My bills go up, the tax take goes up, publicly funded service delivery reducing in quality and quantity every year, and inflation and recession ensure that wages for my particular job are trending down while I have to compete with ever younger job entrants with worthless qualifications and no work ethic. Public schooling for my disabled child gets further out of reach and because we are legally bound to provide an education my highly qualified, highly experienced wife can't go back to work because we'll be home schooling.

And someone wants to make sure that I can't even afford the free positive attitude adjustment of travelling to and from work by motorcycle every day.

The Lassez Faire, 'Let Them Eat Cake" attitude of NZ's politicians and Business "leaders" toward people like me is going to earn them the eventual negative attitude adjustment they deserve.

Jim..where does it mention the establishment of liability?

I think that ACC needs a shake up....it needs to be run better to secure it for the future of NZ....at this stage there are just ideas being banded about...

Why does change scare so many when it is the only constant...

[kevie]

Chesire Cat posted a copy of a letter he received from ACC signed "Blah, ACC Insurance."

The document has been forwarded to opposition parties.

And I ave emailed Manawatu Evening Standard, Solid Gold FM and Campbell Live with this info too .... wonder if they will tell it how it is or bow down to the power of the government to mute them.

[twotyred]

In this case I am confident that the reporter who is passing it along is an excellent and impartial reporter. I am staying with him when I am in Wellington. However despite what we may think my sense in talking to him tonight is that we don't register as one of the key news story. Rodney Hide, etc are much more of interest.

I believe the Dominion does not have a reporter assigned specifically to this story.

I'm sure he is but,at the end of the day it is his wholly owned editor that has the final say what runs...

[taff1954]

Out of curiosity, if ACC IS rebranding to 'ACC Insurance', who's paying the cost of said rebranding, if ACCs' pockets are as empty as they claim them to be? On second thoughts, I'll ask them. Not that I expect a reply. Again.

OK, so I did email and ask, this was the reply. Note the reference to the 'internal ACC Insurance group, and the comment re the usage of the word insurance:

"Thankyou for your email below. My apologies that I have not been able to respond as quickly as I hoped.

I have had the opportunity to gather the following information for you and I hope it does clarify things for you.

Insurance is defined as an arrangement for compensation in the event of damage to, or loss of (property, life or a person) in exchange for a payment.



ACC is the Crown entity set up to deliver New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme through the Injury Prevention, Rehabilitation, and Compensation (IPRC) Act 2001.



Within ACC, the group named “ACC Insurance” undertakes activities that are “insurance related activities”. Such activities include determining and making recommendations (to the ACC Board) on the levies to be charged for each account, underwriting activities to ensure each levy product or service is financially sustainable and collecting levies, either directly or indirectly from ACC levy customers.



While we appreciate this may be a different use of the term “insurance” than is generally understood, it does best describe and provide direction for the internal ACC Insurance Group."

Signed by Diane Paton, Customer Support Coordinator.

(Edit) No mention of whether this is a rebranding or not, and if so who's paying for it - my original questions to them.

[FastBikeGear]

Compensation = Pay as you go financial model. Hence the 700 million profit for a Government department that should be run with balanced books.

James can you clarify was this a $700 million dollar dividend to the government or a $700 million paid in tax?

[FastBikeGear]

What if i'm unemployed? or have been for several years? or have debilitating injuries that I've had since birth? Where's my cover as i can't afford insurance? I understand your hypothesizing

Even if you are unempoyed you will still need to pay an ACC premium if you want personal injury cover and it will still be compulsory. Can't get blood out of a stone you say. No but you can deduct it directly from your unemployment allowance.