Attacking Transit on another front:

[Reckless]

I must say it is quite interesting to get an opinion from the other side of the fence. From within the road engineering Dept. Given that Nikolia's argument/points are actually quite logical and informative from the Depts point of view!
I still can't see how this makes the roads safer for us bikers. If it does, its by fear and fear alone. And the pics are taken from up in a 4WD not down at bike level. Actually from the transit depts point of view there may now be less crashes in this region. But its because we are to shit scared of making a mistake and ride strung out and weary. I'm actually more scared of a cager making that mistake and having to try and avoid him and get in-tangled in someone else's mess and killed/maimed in the cheescutter as a result.
We are not allowed to use fear as a weapon anywhere in society and I believe this is the main reason why cheesecutters are working. There are so bloody menacing even the cagers don't like them. Then when the untoward happens, its the biker that will die first every time. There is no way you can convince me the cheesecutters installed on the road in the pictures make this piece of road safer for any accident other than crossing the center line. And if that did happen where would you go if there was any chance of swerving to avoid if you had the chance. There is simply no margin for error by anyone in any type of vehicle. They are for to close to the road. Someone else makes a mistake and and your into the wire!! On either side!! This piece of road is safer because of fear alone.

Is this the way of the future for our roads it sounds like it is from the comments in this thread!!
Is this the way we want to tour our country through wire and bars.
Call the above unfactual and emotional but we are hammered with environmental this and that, all the time why not in this argument as well.

Safer my arse!!! My opinion only! unsupported by any facts!

PS The "this" was supposed to point to the thread where the cheese cutter pics where here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=62260.
Someone could pm me on how to do those damn link words!LOL

[swbarnett]

Not when they're placed on the outside of corners.

Given that you come to grief beside one yes, the risk of hitting it is high.

Probability of coming to grief (low side, high side etc.) < 1
Probability of there being a WRB where you come off < 1

Therefore Probability of coming to grief AND hitting a WRB << 1

i.e. when considered over a year's riding the chances of actually hitting a WRB is quite small (in particular, no higher than any other type of barrier).

[MSTRS:Me]

What really gets our backs up is that we are being singled out and told we don't matter in the wider scheme of things. If race were involved instead of mode of transport I believe this would actually be illegal.

Or gender, or age, or religion etc....perhaps we could declare motorcycling to be a living religion (it is to some) then we'd have a case for the Human Rights Commission.

when considered over a year's riding the chances of actually hitting a WRB is quite small (in particular, no higher than any other type of barrier).

True, but the consequences are what is important in this equation.
And since at least 25km/year is being installed, the chances of being in it's proximity are increasing.

[WelshWizard]

Heres a quote for you, from the industry standard manual of Traffic Engineering. I realise i`m wasting my breath here but I dislike being insulted.

"Ideally barriers should have all surfaces (sides,tops and under barrier areas) as smooth as possible. Concerns that wire rope barriers will act like a cheese cutter on a motorcyclist have failed to materialise: there is no evidence at all, worldwide of this occuiring, despite approved wire rope barrier systems being used for at least two decades. As with other barriers, the posts present the greater potential for injury"

Sorry the manual is flawed.
20th Oct 2007 3.30 Am Daniel. L.J. Evans received fatal injuries from the WRB on the Southern Motorway.
After talking to the path lab, I can say,
If Daniel had not come into contact with the Wires of The WRB he would most likely be alive now, only injuries that were of a major nature were those cause by the wires of the WRB.( they cut him into two, and nearly three severing his spine, lung, liver Stomach Etc.)

Finish and clar,
The wire cut him in half the same as it would with any other rider who hits them, only altering factor could be the angle they hit, slower angle , then the post will also damage what's not cut apart by the wires as you slide into them, if you are lucky you won't feel the post as you are already DEAD ( game of two halves), not the first either look on the WWW and you will find a lot more , so LTNZ only needs to look instead of using out of date data.

Your point about the post doing most of the damage also applies to the corrugated barriers, so should they not be constructed so that they do not leave the post exposed , if you check out Australian manufactures website http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=10&leaf=y how they should be


Considering the way that roads are built in the NZ, there doesn’t seem to be any practical alternative to crash barriers. Motorways and carriageways are usually placed alongside each other, meaning there is no space in between for anything other than a crash barrier.
Quote Professor Knapton concludes: “There is simply no room for any alternatives. We put our carriageways very close together. In the USA they keep carriageways about 40ft apart and have a gentle ditch between them. This is a very good idea but we don’t have the space to do it in New Zealand. I can’t think of anything for New Zealand roads that could replace barriers, especially as a lot of our motorways are urban motorways. Bearing the space issue in mind, it does seem to me that using concrete barriers is a much better alternative to steel barriers or WRBs.”

And now we have
http://www.corporateaccountability.o...idgeshire.html
Maybe we will get some thing like this in New Zealand soon.

Just a few extra goodies, that LTNZ should have looked at, if they have not then they need to.
http://www.nmcu.org/av/rider_no_prot...right_view.mpg
http://www.nmcu.org/av/rider_with_pr...right_view.mpg

http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1460
http://www.sustainableconcrete.org.n...id=751&sec=750

[swbarnett]

True, but the consequences are what is important in this equation.

This was my original point. It doesn't matter how unlikely an event is if the impact of that event is sufficiently high. We are most definitely in agreement on that point I think.

And since at least 25km/year is being installed, the chances of being in it's proximity are increasing.

This, of course, is the main reason to oppose them. Well said.

[Reckless]

Sorry the manual is flawed.

Well done Mr Wizard. But will they Listen!!! Bureaucracies are never wrong.
It takes 10000 (or more) independent opinions to change, one thing, One man with the power of the establishment behind him thinks is right!
It seems to be the NZ way of late!

PS That Comment was not aimed at Nikolai far from it, but at the establishment and the attitude they seem to display.

[Jiminy]

Ideally barriers should have all surfaces (sides,tops and under barrier areas) as smooth as possible. (...) As with other barriers, the posts present the greater potential for injury

Glad to see that we all agree. Ahem, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the whole point of the campaign was to replace or modify existing barriers so that the posts are covered. Any type of barrier with exposed posts is bad, not just the WRBs. Let's dress up those posts!

However, I'm glad to get some views from the 'other side', especially from a fellow biker.

[Usarka]

Personal freedom is fine, (at least in that regard, when the red mist comes down we typically only kill ourselves unlike the child racers who wipe our a car load of their mates), but we arent helping ourselves.

The whole countries attitude is to not help yourself and let the nanny state do it for you.

If you over engineer the roads then driving skill will dissappear.

and crashes will occur on the pieces of road that require a small degree of skill, thought and responsibility.

[MSTRS:Me]

The whole countries attitude is to not help yourself and let the nanny state do it for you.

If you over engineer the roads then driving skill will dissappear.

and crashes will occur on the pieces of road that require a small degree of skill, thought and responsibility.

How right you are. No matter how much things are dumbed down, the human condition will adjust accordingly, so little changes.
Side note - it has been posted here before that 100kph on straight, boring roads is dangerous because the driver/rider needs no input other than throttle and so attention wanders. Whereas crank it up a bit and no such 'switching off' occurs.

[sAsLEX]

Not when they're placed on the outside of corners.

I love how every new stretch of road they seem to just throw them up!


New passing lane heading from Blenheim to Picton, the road remains the same in terms of roadside threats and remains straight, but as soon as the passing lane comes up they have installed barriers on the sides of the road?!

Explain this Nikolai_V. What advantage to the public do these provide considering the tens of kms of similar road either side of the passing lane are un-barriered and what would of been a nice straight section of road now has a potentially fatal barrier on the side of the road. Considering that WRBs have been shown to be fatal to motorcyclists over the speed of 70kmhr.

[RatBags]

Sorry the manual is flawed.
20th Oct 2007 3.30 Am Daniel. L.J. Evans received fatal injuries from the WRB on the Southern Motorway.
After talking to the path lab, I can say,
If Daniel had not come into contact with the Wires of The WRB he would most likely be alive now, only injuries that were of a major nature were those cause by the wires of the WRB.( they cut him into two, and nearly three severing his spine, lung, liver Stomach Etc.)


[/url]

Here is a second case for you with CheeseCutters
Sorry very graphic so don't look on link if you are squeamish.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...phicimage1.jpg

[RatBags]

From KB you have this snippit, it may noy be WRB, but the post did just as good a job as a WRB

*warning graphic*

Guy hits a road barrier and it rips his leg off.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/11...ht_Off_his_Leg

I watched it, if you are sqeamish its a definate no no

[Pixie]

Despite the hard time (and abuse) i`m actually doing a literature review at the moment and working with some colleagues to see if this is a systematic problem (in which case we need to look at our policy) or if its isolated poor treatment selection (which can be dealt with at a local level). Personally driving a unfamiliar road at night in the rain - i`ll take the chevrons over road marker posts (but then again i`m not perfect). seems to be a crime to cater for all road users (like those with less than optimal night vision) but wait the cheesecutters
why bother.....

If you and your colleagues don't know that there is a problem with these signs then you are all bullshitters or never drive at night in the countryside

[Pixie]

I must say it is quite interesting to get an opinion from the other side of the fence. From within the road engineering Dept. Given that Nikolia's argument/points are actually quite logical and informative from the Depts point of view!
I still can't see how this makes the roads safer for us bikers. If it does, its by fear and fear alone. And the pics are taken from up in a 4WD not down at bike level. Actually from the transit depts point of view there may now be less crashes in this region. But its because we are to shit scared of making a mistake and ride strung out and weary. I'm actually more scared of a cager making that mistake and having to try and avoid him and get in-tangled in someone else's mess and killed/maimed in the cheescutter as a result.
We are not allowed to use fear as a weapon anywhere in society and I believe this is the main reason why cheesecutters are working. There are so bloody menacing even the cagers don't like them. Then when the untoward happens, its the biker that will die first every time. There is no way you can convince me the cheesecutters installed on the road in the pictures make this piece of road safer for any accident other than crossing the center line. And if that did happen where would you go if there was any chance of swerving to avoid if you had the chance. There is simply no margin for error by anyone in any type of vehicle. They are for to close to the road. Someone else makes a mistake and and your into the wire!! On either side!! This piece of road is safer because of fear alone.

Is this the way of the future for our roads it sounds like it is from the comments in this thread!!
Is this the way we want to tour our country through wire and bars.
Call the above unfactual and emotional but we are hammered with environmental this and that, all the time why not in this argument as well.

Safer my arse!!! My opinion only! unsupported by any facts!

PS The "this" was supposed to point to the thread where the cheese cutter pics where here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=62260.
Someone could pm me on how to do those damn link words!LOL

And the section in the pic has not had the centre barrier installed to the manufacturer's specs - not that I'm trying to tell Transit how to do their job

[WelshWizard]

From KB you have this snippit, it may noy be WRB, but the post did just as good a job as a WRB



I watched it, if you are sqeamish its a definate no no

Here is a second case for you with CheeseCutters
Sorry very graphic so don't look on link if you are squeamish.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...phicimage1.jpg

After seeing the video and the pictures, makes you wonder what sort of people decide to put these types of barriers up , when then know what they do the still insist on defnding these barriers.

BTW Welcome to KB Simon, how long before you leave Holland and return to the USA,