Why knee down

**Jackrat** · 27th February 2004, 10:23

Ok for all the posers,I know you think it looks good.
But why do it when it so obviously locks you into such an unforgiving nothing else, No where else to go riding style.Years ago I read the writings of Mike Hailwood,A guy who was considered THE BEST,and he made it quite plan he thought it was a stupid idea,And his acheviements proved him RIGHT.So why scrape your pegs when you don't need to,why stick your bloody knee out when you don't need to.After all Mike DID PISS ALL OVER,the riders that used the style.The other great that didn't use the style was AGO'.So here we have
the two best riders of all time both saying it sucks,and proving it,yet we have guys doing it and then complaining of running out of room,running wide and any number of things going wrong that can be attributed directly to this riding style.I mean if you scarpe your pegs and then run wide,why the fuck are you doing it.Have none of you knee down types ever read or taken notice
of the proven best,an thus learnt the error of this crap unforgiving style of riding.And you can forget Kenny Rodgers,He was never as good as either Hailwood or Ago'
You don't belive me,Read the stat's!!!
Running out of road,Scraping your pegs??? What a crock.

**aff-man** · 27th February 2004, 10:49

Hmm make you think i have got the zxr pretty far over so that if i wanted to (or had) sliders sticking my knee out will possibly result in road contact. But the big question i have to ask to those who do use sliders is ... Does it make that much difference????

**Motoracer** · 27th February 2004, 11:04

Hey JR, first of all, you have to consider who the riders are now looking up to. You will porbably find names like Valentino Rossi or Max Biaggi or some of the other current racers who all use the knee down position. When I started riding, it was the cool thing to do and now I can't seem to ride with out it. Call it a bad habit, riding style or what ever but IMO, I can see a few advantages of this position. I can tell the lean angel of the bike while scraping my knee. I put weight on the knee thus I reduce the force exerted on the tires while cornering. I can control slides better in this position since its like havein a little third wheel on the ground.

I hate scraping the pegs cause thats when you can't go any lower and if you do it wrong, it can make you come off. Cause if you have to turn harder after already scraping the pegs, your in trouble and you just run wide for the corner. To avoid this I hang off a lot so when I am riding, the bike doesn't go THAT low.

**k14** · 27th February 2004, 11:24

Totally agree with you motoracer. If the top guys are doing it at the moment, there must be some merit to doing it. But i think the point should be that they do it in a controlled environment with a limited amount of variables. When someone does it on the road that is just complete lunacy.

I have a leather suit with virgin knee sliders. The first day i got it i thought, "yay, some knee down action" i learnt very quickly that it is stupid to try and do it on the road. After a rear slide and a near high side, i quickly gave up the idea. Now bring on the trackdays

**Coldkiwi** · 27th February 2004, 11:54

Originally Posted by k14

When someone does it on the road that is just complete lunacy.

The first day i got it i thought, "yay, some knee down action" i learnt very quickly that it is stupid to try and do it on the road.

not neccessarily.. you just need
a) reasonable bike
b) reasonable tyres
c) reasonable warm dry road with a suitable corner

its FECKING fun for starters and very satisfying having it down (if only because you get to corner faster and feel the g's on your body). Decking out the pegs just means you need a sportier bike (or rearsets) with more clearence if you're going to persist.
To say that it has no merit when Rossi is doing it (and wiping the field no matter what style/bike/excuse they use) is surely taking the piss JR. I'm happy to delve into the physics of why hanging off (and hence knee out) makes any bike corner faster and even provide some nice form 6 level diagrams... but are you really interested in being proven wrong or are you just enjoying stirring guys on sportsbikes?

**Dave** · 27th February 2004, 11:56

Why knee down
-lower centre of gravity
-utilise centrifugal force to aid grip
-guage lean angle
-pick up front to prevent front wheel slides

Look at the lap times from mike hailwood to valantino rossi,
i don't think hailwood was quite as quick.
-ah, but the machinery's different, thats the point, hailwood wasn't riding a 230 horsepower 145kg bike.
IT WORKS!
Hailwood also didn't have any telemetry to prove one way or the other.

**750Y** · 27th February 2004, 12:13

on the road, it's not the act of getting one's knee down, as such, which causes the rider to run out of options.

**merv** · 27th February 2004, 12:24

Isn't the whole guts of it that with physics there can only be equilibrium or else there will be some velocity in a lateral direction involved meaning you are skating on your arse. Leaning in - with body and or knee down is all about allowing that balance with the bike in a more upright position. That allows Rossi and co to easily tail slide the bike without the fear of it rapidly low siding. Hence they go slightly faster round the curves by maintaining better grip and control from the tyre being more upright than it otherwise would be to balance at that speed. On the road if you are getting nowhere near scraping your pegs or losing tyre grip then whether you put your knee out or not won't make any difference as far as I can see the laws of physics would say.

Who remembers Giancarlo Falappa? - for a while he used to lean the bike into the curves and his body off to the outside of the curve after having come from moto-x and he still won a few races. I think that was because he scared the shit out of others when he stuffed it up the inside of them at that angle.

**mangell6** · 27th February 2004, 12:52

One minor detail with 'modern bikes' is that the weight distribution is very different to the good old days, when bikes were bikes and the roads were an adventure not a race track like today.

I read an article a coule of months ago that spoke of the different riding styles and how the weight distribution has had an impact on riding styles.

Jackrat you should attempt to ride hanging of on the next corner, use a back road and a left hander.

**Dave** · 27th February 2004, 12:53

Who remembers Giancarlo Falappa? - for a while he used to lean the bike into the curves and his body off to the outside of the curve after having come from moto-x and he still won a few races.

troy bayliss has been seen to do this quite often.-not mid corner though!

**SPman** · 27th February 2004, 13:38

Style often doesnt have a lot to do with skill.The late John Robinson from Performance Bikes used to regularly embarrass hot shots at track days, - when they were attacking corners, full knee down etc, he would apparently casually ride around the outside of them in an almost touring like angle of lean, bike almost upright.
Hailwood and Ago were brilliant, for their day, but bikes have changed considerable in style of riding as well as everything else.In the old days of Duc 750's with TT100 tyres , it was all neat,central and tucked in. With more modern bikes, I now find Im riding with a lot of weight forward, loading the front tyre and moving around on the bike far more than I ever did. I tried riding an old bike like that and almost canned off!
As for knee sliders on road leathers....well, they make good things to kneel on in the gravel when you're checking your chain or tyres!

**wkid_one** · 27th February 2004, 14:31

Originally Posted by Jackrat

Ok for all the posers,I know you think it looks good.
But why do it when it so obviously locks you into such an unforgiving nothing else, No where else to go riding style.Years ago I read the writings of Mike Hailwood,A guy who was considered THE BEST,and he made it quite plan he thought it was a stupid idea,And his acheviements proved him RIGHT.So why scrape your pegs when you don't need to,why stick your bloody knee out when you don't need to.After all Mike DID PISS ALL OVER,the riders that used the style.The other great that didn't use the style was AGO'.So here we have
the two best riders of all time both saying it sucks,and proving it,yet we have guys doing it and then complaining of running out of room,running wide and any number of things going wrong that can be attributed directly to this riding style.I mean if you scarpe your pegs and then run wide,why the fuck are you doing it.Have none of you knee down types ever read or taken notice
of the proven best,an thus learnt the error of this crap unforgiving style of riding.And you can forget Kenny Rodgers,He was never as good as either Hailwood or Ago'
You don't belive me,Read the stat's!!!
Running out of road,Scraping your pegs??? What a crock.

Technical reason why - you can carry more corner speed. Why - because you are shifting the COG nearer to the inside of the corner and allowing the bike to be more upright going around the corner......no other reason.

Also - once you have done it - it becomes very hard not to corner without getting off the bike.

I did it because I felt in greater control of the corner. Not just having the feedback from the tyre but also from the road. It also acts as a lean indicator - telling you how far you are leaning by feel - not just look.

Why do more riders ride dragging their knee on the track than don't?? it is quicker.

I personally couldn't give a flying fuck whether people think I should or shouldn't have ridden with my knee down. I know I cornered better and quicker this

As for Lunacy - not at all.......as with anything on a bike - it is just about picking where to do it and how fast to do it. You are right - if you are knee down - you can only tighten your line up slightly so picking your entry speed is crucial to not running wide......but knee down cornering is not stupid.....in fact it is the best way to get up the Taka's.