Researching 70Km L-Plate restriction safety

[Tony]

I have been informed by the NZ Police statistics department that despite this rule being a major safety concern raised by the previous Minister of Transport (Hon Harry Duynhoven) and repeatedly raised by motorcyclists since it's introduction in 1987 that no statistics have ever been collected in NZ on;

1. the number of learner riders who have died while complying with this rule
2. the number of learner riders who have died while doing 100km/h or exceeding the 100km/h limit.

I had requested both of the above under the O.I.A. and I have been told they can't provide the above as they have never collected either statistic.

Now I know at this point everone is going to think that I have misunderstood their response and I must be mistaken and they surely must collect this information. I have requested a formal written response and I am currently waiting on this.

Surely this information can be extracted from fatal accident reports on which the estimated speed the rider was travelling at when the accident began to unfold should be recorded?

Does anyone else find it amazing that they only record the estimated speed for traffic accidents that happen over the speed limit?

I think this is bordering on criminally negligent?

When I started this researh project I thought that I would discover evidence of intelligent policing and smart research - I have been shocked to find an absense of both.

The traffic safety education that police officers receive is extremely deficient and lite in nature. With the existing rules and poor safety education and focus on policing rather than educating they have, they can have very little impact on road safety. It must be extremley, incredibly frustrating for them to do a job that offers so little satisfaction. Most of the rest of us get to do satisfying jobs why shouldn't they be aforded the same opportunity.

If you started with a clean sheet of paper and the directive to reduce road deaths and injuries, the plan would look nothing like what is being actioned today.

Can you tell I have reached frustration point?

For the record, while I occassionally break the speed limit, I am not an advocate for speeding. But I do think for the money we all pay towards policing through taxes we should expect intelligent policing and we are simply not getting it.

[vifferman]

I do think for the money we all pay towards policing through taxes we should expect intelligent policing and we are simply not getting it.

I thought that this morning, when riding down the motorway. There's a cop, sitting (actually, parked where it would be illegal for anyone else), pointing his laser at oncoming traffic, just before the end of his shift.
What's intelligent about this, and how does it aid road safety? I guess though, that it's good use of taxpayer money. He would only need to 'ping' a couple of cars doing over 108km/h, and he's paid for his time spent sitting there, and made good inroads into his weekly quota. Plus this data will be included in any stats collected.

[Tony]

I have been informed by the NZ Police statistics department that despite this rule being a major safety concern raised by the previous Minister of Transport (Hon Harry Duynhoven) and repeatedly raised by motorcyclists since it's introduction in 1987 that no statistics have ever been collected in NZ on;

1. the number of learner riders who have died while complying with this rule
2. the number of learner riders who have died while doing 100km/h or exceeding the 100km/h limit.

I had requested both of the above under the O.I.A. and I have been told they can't provide the above as they have never collected either statistic.

There must have been some confusion in the original phone conversation. Contrary to the above the Police statistics department has followed up the phone call in a letter with the following these statistics. Many thanks to the Police Statistics department all my faith has now been restored.

Here they are:

Between 2001 and 2008, of the 274 morotcyclists killed (including moped riders) 38 of these riders (13.8%) held a learner license.

27 of the 38 fatalities (71%) happened on the open road. We only have an estimated speed for 9 of these 27 riders.

3 (33%) of these 27 riders were travelling at 70km/h or less. It needs to be noted that one of these was travelling betwen 10 and 20km hour
1 (11%) was travelling between 70 and 100km/hr
3 (33%) were killed travelling betwenn 90 km/hand 110 km/h
1 (11%) rider was killed exceeding 120km/h

I don't have figures to compare the % time learners spend riding on the open road Vs limited speed zones.
It should be noted that this is also a relatively small sample to draw conclusions from.

Anecdotal indication is that a large proportion of learners are advised to remove their Learner plates by riding instructors and experienced riders and ignore the 70km/h rule. If learner riders only obey the 70km/h rule 25% of the time then the statistics would tend to indicate it is significantly more dangerous to travel at 70km/h in 100km/h zones. However the reality is we don't know what % of the time learners obey the 70km/h restriction.

Interesting thing is that from the limited statistics above, only a very small percentage of learners were killed in excess of 110km/h. I suspect that this is because learners probably don't speed as much as experienced motorcyclists.

[discotex]

We only have an estimated speed for 9 of these 27 riders.

3 (33%) of these 27 riders were travelling at 70km/h or less. It needs to be noted that one of these was travelling betwen 10 and 20km hour
1 (11%) was travelling between 70 and 100km/hr
3 (33%) were killed travelling betwenn 90 km/hand 110 km/h
1 (11%) rider was killed exceeding 120km/h

Ummm that's only 8 out of 9.

But it fairly clearly shows that the number of deaths is not relative to speed so there is no justification for the limit itself.

I wonder if 71% of learner car drivers die on the open road as well.

[Ixion]

Just to complicate things (especially the open road bit), bear in mind that there are an awful lot of "learners" who are not learners. That is, riders who have been riding for years (many years in some cases) but have never bothered to progress their licences past the L stage. One cannot assume that "learner" = "inexperienced"

[Ash250R]

Ive been having a skim throught this thread and with the hope that it does not form a debate it is a very good thing to question, as a newbie yet to get my learners I myself am slightly concerned, as of the end of the week my motorbike will be my only for of transport, yes its is fine for sumone in a town like Hamilton for a short commute but I travel from hamilton and kaitaia at a frequency of anyware up to a return trip every two or more months it is definitly somthing to be of concern.

There is allways an idiot on the road it is almost human nature to test boundries weather its driving or riding, is this something that is going to take an awfull accident caused by speed differnce to make the rule aparent that yes it may do more harm than good?

To make a point it is almost as daunting when driving my 73 Datsun (Japanise Tank) at around 80kph on the motorway it only takes one person doing a poor attempt at overtaking to cause problems, I hate to think that it will be greatly amplified whilst riding a bike that is not even half your body weight.

[JMemonic]

Keep up the effort Tony the info proves at least the statistical information is lacking.

As has been said the figures can be skewed by the riders who have not upgraded, there for time the licence has been held is important info, as is the size of the bike, ie was the rider outside of their licence class.

[Tony]

Just to complicate things (especially the open road bit), bear in mind that there are an awful lot of "learners" who are not learners. That is, riders who have been riding for years (many years in some cases) but have never bothered to progress their licences past the L stage. One cannot assume that "learner" = "inexperienced"

Ixion your dead right again! The other complication is that I hear that a number of L-Plate riders remove their plates and ignore the 70 km/h limitation on the open road.

I want to get a feel for what percentage of riders do this plus a couple of other things. Can anyone tell me how I conduct a poll on this forum?

[Tony]

Oh no bad news, the legislation to remove the 70km/h changes to this law have now been pushed back by another year. These were proposed to be in driver license changes currently being drafted.

see http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rul...er-licensing-6

I think originally the consultation was supposed to be last year and then it was going to be mid 2009 and now it has been announced that they won't be going out to public consultation until 2010.

I wonder how many more learners will lose their lives unnecessarily until this rule is changed.

Please if you are concerned about this please write to the Minister of transport, Steven Joyce.

Hon Steven Joyce
Minister of Transport
Parliament Buildings
Wellington 6011
New Zealand

[Jenral]

Thanks, this topic has helped me to write my application for exemption.

Cheers Tony and everyone for the useful info.

[JMemonic]

Thanks, this topic has helped me to write my application for exemption.

Cheers Tony and everyone for the useful info.

I would be interested to see how you get on with the exemption, and the information you used as we might need to apply for one.

[Jenral]

Thanks, this topic has helped me to write my application for exemption.

Cheers Tony and everyone for the useful info.

Damn it, DECLINED

Oh well, it was only a long shot anyway. I'll just have to be patient until October when I can sit my restricted.

[Tony]

Damn it, DECLINED

Oh well, it was only a long shot anyway. I'll just have to be patient until October when I can sit my restricted.

On what grounds did you request your exemption?
Did you say that you needed to travel on 100km roads to get to work, place of educaton, etc. and point out your were requesting exemption based on safety as per the previous Minister of Transports comments..."... Remove the 70km/h speed limit restriction which currently applies to learner motorcycle licence holders. This restriction is largely ignored. When this speed restriction is adhered to it creates a large difference in the speed of vehicles travelling on the open road, which is a known road safety problem. Road safety research indicates this speed difference issue outweighs any benefit of lower open road speed limits for novice motorcycle riders;"

http://beehive.govt.nz/release/motor...igh+crash+rate

One would have hoped that would now do the trick!

One reason I have been recently given for delaying the abolishment of this rule was. "Currently this is one of the few mechanisms avalible to us for encouraging Motorcycle riders to progress from their Learners License to a Restricted License, we don't want riders riding on learner licenses for 5 years or more as is currently often the case, particularly with scooter riders."

Although I am not sure why they woud care if scooter riders stayed on learner license for ever?

[Dare]

Although I am not sure why they woud care if scooter riders stayed on learner license for ever?

Neither, unlike cages there is a basic handling test for learners so it can't be that. The minimal difference between learner and restricted makes me think it would be worth simply stating 'curfew at xx:xx for first year, xx:xx for second'. I think maybe that extra $80 per person?

[Tony]

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