Not allowed to hand out BikersAgainstACCLevies pamphlet at CHCH Biketoberfest

[Laxi]

I don't dispute your opinion or other sources......they sound like they have potential...but when faced with a blizzard of daily/weekly issues.

my bike needs a new tyre, rear pads, warrant, rego etc... guess whats the top issue for me at the moment? you need to realise where your money's coming from!

[lakedaemonian]

You say you are concerned about ACC increases but this is the first time you have made a comment about it, why not come on here earlier and let fellow bikers know what the industry is trying to do.
Anyway thanks for fronting up with your side. cheers.

Good question.

I was on an industry related trip when it was announced.

Of the time I had with some more senior folks in the region I expressed my initial serious concerns and asked for assistance if needed.


While I do try and monitor traffic here weekly, it's been a hell of a month schedule wise.

Also, have a look at the historical culture of this forum.

If I was to suddenly rock up and share my opinion without any real overt history on this forum...regardless of my opinion's perceived value or that of my industry peers there's a good chance that due to the skepticism and assumption of guilt by dealers on this forum it's not a very welcoming environment.

Also, this forum doesn't seem to take kindly to tryhards...of which a dealer presenting a popular opinion on this issue may be perceived.

I have lurked in this online community for quite sometime.

I have posted rarely.

While we are both part of the NZ motorcycling community, I am not an active member of this forum........I'm hear to respond to a poster with as few posts as I, quick to accuse and sharing only some of the story.

It would be wrong(or at least I think it would be) for me to suddenly show up here commenting on the ACC Levies squawking and shitting everywhere like a seagull.

I'm still working on my own submission.......I'm not going to send something out half-cocked......I hope you can see my point that while I have strong opinions, and anyone who knows me knows I share them endlessly, it would be inappropriate for me to jump dump on this forum without having built some credibility here first.

In this case it's about resolving what REALLY happened in regards to this thread being initiated, and happily fronting up on whatever else pops up until that happens.

Thanks for your question, I hope I answered it, if not, feel free to PM.

[lakedaemonian]

Watch out, he nearly got you didn't he?

Cmon people, this is baaaaaasic spin doctoring 101. Think about it. Go back and read his explanation(sic) carefully. hint: the writers' main point is always made in his final paragraph. So what was it? Go read it again for yourself, and that will sum it up perfectly.

Next step for him is to weasel out of giving any sort of further explanation, usually on the basis that they choose to take umbrage at something, probably that they have been 'insulted' or somesuch. Always, it will be someone elses' fault but theirs, and they will be the injured party. Note the role reversal!


Steve

In response to this I will endeavour to keep on track or revisit what questions are asked.

For me I want to clarify what actually happened...my recollection of events is a good bit different from chchc_zed...it wasn't that exciting.

A poster with as little history on here as I is assumed to be entirely honest and forthcoming. I'm here, and have fronted up, to address those errors and inconsistencies in his story as they relate to what actually transpired.

But out of respect for this community I'm also here in good faith to add what I can.

As the thread twists and turns I hope you understand it will probably need to be brought back on track if sidetracked.

This medium is one that isn't well utilized by motorcycle dealers on this forum or on any other that I know of on a regular basis.

While some folks may think I'm crazy for even being here and taking a potentially perpetual beating.......it's worth whatever cost is incurred to be one of the first of my peer group to face the gauntlet rather than being one of the last.

[lakedaemonian]

Haha, I was right.

Note the role reversals;

he is now more pissed off at you than you at him

it is not you who is the injured party it is him

you have no right to feel angry but he does

only "appropriate" submissions may be made - he decides

and right at the end of his post, he is more than happy to take this out of this forum and sort it out provided it goes into secrecy???

Wake up and smell the shit, people. Geez.

Steve

I guess it's going to take a bit to "find my feet" if I'm going to be accepted into this forum, or if my presence is only temporary to participate briefly in this specific thread....I guess we find out as we go along.

If my language was too salty...well I'm not a robot...motorcycle dealers are motorcyclists too.

Everyone else gets to shoot from the lip......that's why I arrived.....to respond here to something I thought was wrong.

I am no victim.

But I'm also not going to sit by and watch an inaccurate and unopposed accusation become the truth.

[lakedaemonian]

hey... Id just be happy to find out the relationship between ACC and bikefest?

I think we've covered that in my previous posts.....if not, please PM, and I'll elaborate more in open forum, but it's pretty simple...it all came out of rider safety training events from earlier this year...that morphed into a rider safety theme for the event.....we felt it was aligned interests and in the best interest of ALL parties.........there is no conspiracy theory, no matter how juicy a story that might be.

[lakedaemonian]

Yes this place can be brutal, normal joe bloggs kinda people will generally speak about their bad experiences rather than their good ones.. marketing 101, make sure they walk away feeling good.



Fair call.



I doubt that many people would have been put out by being handed a leaflet, shit it happens every day on the high street.



I think that handing out leaflets to (mostly bikers) would generally been seen as a positive thing to be doing given the current situation. If there is an issue that people feel passionate about and it affects many people, even indirectly, Tsunami for example, people get out hand out leaflets and spread the word.



I think that has view has been mentioned many times on this site and is well understood by the majority, indeed many people have made individual submissions but a collective voice is also a loud voice.




If you follow this site as you mentioned above how have you missed the fact that most of the posts have been along this very line, don't upset joe bloggs but get the point across.



I don't know you or Dave or anyone in the industry, I'm just going by what both sides have posted here, to be honest, you haven't done yourself any favours.




That is the kind of emotion that the general riding population need, it is what has fired up so many. Not just on this site but the riding population as a whole.

It's a heated issue, with a lot of tempers flaring.

I'm upset, you're upset, we're all upset.

Some people seem to be getting upset at others for either not BEING upset enough or not APPEARING to be upset enough, for not DOING enough, or not APPEARING to be doing enough.

How is everyone vetting the difference between actual substance on this issue and just noise?

You seem to be supportive of my outburst(I think, or maybe just the emotional reaction)....while others here think it's a fake PR101 misdirection.

Outside of my own personal and repeated reason for being here to set the story straight on the actual conversation that occurred I'm happy to put up more.......as long as it's not the lose/lose it feels like and that some have PM'd suggesting that it's a no-win situation regardless of the actual circumstances of the situation.

Is a presence/communication/opinion from more dealers actually wanted here?

Or is it better as is with the rare dealer here and there, and the rest not caring or not posting for the same genuine fears I have?

[lakedaemonian]

i was waiting with anticipation for a well constructed response answering the questions at hand but disappointed to only get what was got. Actually, hardly disappointed because I kinda expected it really.

Heres some direct questions... Want to throw them past your PR guy and then manufactor some half arsed response, or you could just front up.....?

1. What is ACCs role in bikefest?
2. What potential damage did you forsee by openly disagreeing with ACC at bikefest?
3. What was the reason behind not handing out anti-rise in rego pamplets at bikefest?

Trying to play catch up on some that may have been missed when the posting was fast and furious......I think this one was partially answered but will cover it again:

1.) ACC was "A" sponsor via their rideforever.co.nz rider safety campaign, we considered ANY effort expended to increase rider safety training or awareness a good thing. It largely consisted of a small co-marketing radio campaign funded directly by ACC in the way of prepaid radio spots.

2.) I am entitled to my opinion and have one, our event organizers have their own individual opinions, and we agreed unanimously on how we would conduct the event in light of recent events.....and we'd be happy to invite one or more folks from KB to attend our event debrief next week to go over it in detail as well as et feedback for next year.....who wants to come? We didn't really perform any kind of assessment about opposing ACC. Again we are under NO contractual, legal, moral, ethical obligations to agree with the ACC, support the ACC, or avoid comment on ACC.

Personally, it feels like we(we being motorcyclists) have been thrown under a bus. In turn, some of the "we" seem to be trying to throw others under the bus...be it ACC, pushbikers, farmbikers, skiers, etc. in a effort to hopefully improve our situation or at least have others share in our potential misery....

3.) Could you clarify please? "anti-rise in rego pamplets" IF you mean why didn't we include some form of ACC levy awareness in some form of rally registration packs then the answer is simple:

We didn't have any conventional rally packs........we simply were stretched too thin to put together a rally pack...just like we missed getting a 5th anniversary patch made up.

Nothing is being run past anyone...I'm trying to cover this stuff with as much frankness and candor as possible...hopefully the early AM timestamp would support that as most sane people are sleeping at this time.

Speaking of sleep........that's me......I'll be sure to give this priority in continuing to respond throughout my day, with the chance to dedicate a bit of time tomorrow night if I get buried during the day.

I can only reiterate that what instigated this thread is not entirely accurate...not even close.

It is in my best interest as well as the best interest of everyone who was involved with organizing Biketoberfest to get involved with the ACC Levy issue. It will have a considerable impact on my business if implemented as is.....so it would be ignorant to assume that because we or I aren't seen to be militant advocates for change that we don't care.

Is anyone interested in fronting up and coming along to the Biketoberfest debrief/washup to be held in a bit over a week? We can cover this specific thread topic issue.....

Time for bed, but will check in later in the day...thank you for your time.

[lakedaemonian]

OK, chch_zed,

Can you please answer the above questions.

Chris, in all honesty, I'm not convinced you have satisfactorialy answered the allegations thrown at you in the first post.

Can you please answer the below:
Presuming ACC "sponsor" your event, can you please advise when they came on board?
Did a representative of ACC ask you (or Dave) to stop the OP from doing what he was doing or was this off your own bat?

Sorry for responding to your post so out of order......the volume of stuff on the thread has been hard to manage and respond to easily. It's hard to put together a single response to every query posed all at one time so if it's a question of having to gather the bits and pieces I've posted in response I appologize for the inconvenience. I'm a bit worried, with some good reason, that if I dropped one single press release-like post it would generate resentment so I'm hoping the individual responses will suit better by trying to take a personal approach rather than a clinical corporate one.

I think we had ACC first attend one of our Biketoberfest meetings approx. 6 months ago, give or take a month. It was US who strongly encouraged them to attend our event in person and engage with the motorcycling community. Their involvement was never an effort to generate revenue for the event.
We were and are continuing to do what we can to keep our community upright and ACCs interests were and are aligned with that same goal, so accepting their support was a no brainer.

No one from ACC asked me or any other organizer to stamp out or stop anything in regards to Biketoberfest.

There were and are no strings attached.....there's no conspiracy.

I also hope chch_zed fronts up so we can cover the actual full extent of the conversation held.

I'm taking full responsibility for my actions here and yesterday, I'm hoping chch_zed chooses to do the same.

The community demanded I front up immediately and I have and will continue to do so as best I can.

So far I think you are the only one trying to hold chch_zed to the same standard.

Regardless of outcome....some equity would be nice.

I could see how a well known and well respected forum member could carry immediate weight within the community when posting such a thread, but is it in the best interest of the community(both Kiwibiker and our physical world community) for a Spanish Inquisition, assumption of guilt atmosphere to be the default approach when one infrequent poster accuses another?

To be quite frank, and to inject a bit of needed levity into the situation I couldn't help but think of Monty Python's "witch" sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

I think it's safe to say we all likely want to achieve the same goal, this thread seems to be fighting over who is doing what and how they are doing it.

Passion is a good thing......but I know that sometimes it clouds judgement and prevents the most effective message from being conveyed.

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.

[Jantar]

A few of us went to the Biketoberfest in Christchurch this morning. While we were there we thought we would hand out pamphlets for the BikersAgainstACCLevies website and to encourage people to put in a submission.

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.

Anyway, I found out later that ACC was sponsoring the event, even though there was no ACC tent or stand to be seen.

So, I guess the organisers are more worried about getting money from ACC than the fact ACC is currently proposing to tax motorcycles off the road.

Hi chchc_zed,

You may remember me.....I was the guy you spoke with for a bit after Dave asked you to stop handing out your pamphlets.

........


As a participant in and witness to events your post inaccurately portrays I'm not going to allow this to go unanswered.

In our conversation we covered a LOT more than what you describe.

If you were confused at the time as your post states, why did you not ask for clarification at the time instead of disparaging a good man and his business on the internet hours later in such a biased and inaccurate manner?

Why didn't you consider saying something along the lines of "can I speak to one of the Biketoberfest organizers and ask about handing out some pamphlets"?

Why did you not take up Dave Golightly on his offer to hand out your leaflets at the road closure entrance/exit of the Biketoberfest event and leave people alone when actually enjoying the event and not pestered with "ACC levies" every 5 seconds?

Why did you not mention in your post the fact that we clearly communicated to you that all of the organizers representing the local motorcycle industry and motorcycle club community unanimously agreed to keep the event positive?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you the Biketoberfest organizers united opinion that the best response to the ACC levy issue is for us to talk one on one with other motorcyclists to make individual and well worded submissions?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you how important the Biketoberfest organizers felt it was to win the hearts and minds of the many non-riding public in attendance by showing them we aren't a bunch of angry, rude, and militant dirtbags.......but their friends and neighbours?

Half the reason why I'm so fcuking pissed off right now is that a good man is being disparaged inappropriately.

Ask anyone who knows me....I don't talk to or treat customers like this.

The other 50% is the bullshit assumption that somehow Dave, myself, or any of the many other industry or enthusiast organizers somehow don't care.

When I found out about the levy increase I, like many, flipped the fuck out.

The only thing I can think of that makes me more furious is unsubstantiated allegations like yours that we somehow don't care about an issue that impacts not just our passion, but potentially our livelihood as well.

We have much at stake.

Our collective choice was, and is, to engage motorcyclists and encourage them to make an appropriate submission.

I'm more than happy to front up in the real world on this one and would be happy to provide details of the only other witness to events, provided that person's privacy is maintained on this forum unless he chooses otherwise.

Chris Elles

Chris, Thank you for fronting up and adding a bit more to this saga. You have, I believe, clarified your position, but you haven't contradicted the events that took place.

Maybe you had good intentions,, but the effect of preventing the pamphlets being handed out at the best time and location is to give the impression that despite anything you may have said at the time, you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists.

I stand by my origional response.

[PirateJafa]

translation= you took ACC sponsorship for an event aimed at motorcyclists who are being screwed by said sponsor? shows loyalty I guess huh?

You dumb fuck, as he said, ACC got involved with them last fall. We've only been "being screwed" by ACC for a couple of weeks.

Good too see the KB kangaroo court is hard at work.

[Trumpess]

Where is ChCh_Zed?
He started this ... i think he needs to finish it, before this witch-hunt gets way out of hand.

[PirateJafa]

Personally, it feels like we(we being motorcyclists) have been thrown under a bus. In turn, some of the "we" seem to be trying to throw others under the bus...be it ACC, pushbikers, farmbikers, skiers, etc. in a effort to hopefully improve our situation or at least have others share in our potential misery....

Bang on, and rep to you for putting that probably quite unpopular yet completely correct opinion out there.

Unfortunately, you'll be finding that KBers are quite quick to disagree with anyone who doesn't kiss their arse.

You wanted to run a positive event, and good on you. You're actually putting your money where your mouth is, unlike the keyboard warriors on here. Keep up the good work.

[CookMySock]

I'm upset, you're upset, we're all upset.

No one was upset until you started ranting about how upset you were. Re-read.

If my language was too salty...well I'm not a robot...motorcycle dealers are motorcyclists too. I am no victim.

No, it was too bland, by a wide margin. All full of egg white and missing all the bacon.

I have fronted up, and will continue to front up, will chch_zed on his comments and lack of full candor on the conversation that occurred?

Uh, no you haven't. You have talked a lot of hoo har and insisted chch_zed has done the same, yet it is your explanation that means little or nothing.

I just think badgering the owner of a dealership like this is unnecessary. He can't win. For every response he posts there'll be a dozen people waiting in the wings to take a shot. Chris is a decent bloke who doesn't deserve this shit but that won't bother the legions of barrack-room lawyers from offering their 2c on an incident they didn't witness. What a shit way to round-off a great, free bike event day.

Wasn't HE badgering people at that event? I think so. For his own purposes? I think so. Re-read.

He "fronts up"(sic) of his own accord here, as he is called to account for his actions, and then proceeds to offer half-baked bullshit responses full of newbie persuasion techniques.

This thread is just going to run and run until an argument gets out of hand and it's closed down.

Yes, that is the final step for him. I urge the moderators to resist the urge to PD.

If the dude was handing out on private property, then ok fair enough to ask him to move off the private property if you don't like it.

This is not so. If the property is privately owned, but is opened to the public with the use of some advertising or signage for the purposes of some public gathering, then it becomes a public place for that time. Any member of the public may conduct themselves within the law on that property during the time of the event. The organisers must terminate the event and publicly ask everyone to leave if they want their private property back.

We asked him to stop........

Sorry, but you are not within your rights to compel a citizen acting within the law to do anything. You would do well to remember this, save comebacks of this nature.

To be quite frank, and to inject a bit of needed levity into the situation I couldn't help but think of Monty Python's "witch" sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

I think it's safe to say we all likely want to achieve the same goal, this thread seems to be fighting over who is doing what and how they are doing it.

Passion is a good thing......but I know that sometimes it clouds judgement and prevents the most effective message from being conveyed.

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.

I'm sorry, but I do not take you as "frank" whatsoever. I take you as sly and evading the issue. You have done quite a clever snow job with at least thirty percent of readers, who do not have the skills to separate your basic persuasion tactics from your truth.

I think you will discover the other sixty percent who can think for themselves will rather vote with their feet/wallets.

I have three suggestions for you. Firstly admit you should not have approached the gentleman to begin with and apologise for this, secondly shut the hell up before you dig a hole bigger than you already have, and thirdly, brush up on your basic persuasion skills before you release them on the public.

And, in closing, heres a youtube video you you.




Steve

[PirateJafa]

OH DEAR GOD ON A STICK!

LOOK GUYZ, KIWIBICKERERS HAZ BEEN SUPPORTING ACC. QUICK, BURN THEM ALLZ, THEY ARE EVIDENTLY SUPPORTING OUR REGISTRATION INCREASEZ!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=87086

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=86313

[Genestho]

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.

Hiya. Have just read this thread, albeit very quickly.

I just want to say to you, sorry that you're getting flamed.

I invited ACC/Rideforever to our BADD Endurance Race - part of the Taupo Road Race Spectacular coming in December.

The idea was to educate riders on gear and give away some free gear from a dealership.

We are not receiving sponsorship or payment from ACC, just giving them a presense (sp?).

We were not forewarned these levy increases were coming from ACC. A fellow board member and I attend meetings with an ACC rep.
Quite annoyed with this - Our board of trustees will have to rethink ACC's presence (sp?).

Luckily in our case we have the luxury of time to assess the situation - I'm assuming you didn't? Good on you for fronting up
To be honest, my initial thoughts are that RideForever should still have a presence but accept that riders will want to have their say.