Not allowed to hand out BikersAgainstACCLevies pamphlet at CHCH Biketoberfest

[Laxi]

To clarify, ACC was not present or represented at the event, ACC pulled the pin approx. a week prior before we as a group had a chance to consider how we would handle it as it was our choice ultimately.

farrk mate! maybe I have to read back through this lot, (nah screw that) i only recall you saying they were a sponsor, would stand to reason they would be there, wouldn't have been simpler to have said in your 1st post that they wern't represented?

[lakedaemonian]

farrk mate! maybe I have to read back through this lot, (nah screw that) i only recall you saying they were a sponsor, would stand to reason they would be there, wouldn't have been simpler to have said in your 1st post that they wern't represented?

Yeah I could have sworn it's in there once or twice earlier in the thread?

Somewhere back on like Page 2 or 3, volume eleventeen, subchapter A

We actually pushed pretty hard for them to have a physical presence when we first started integrating them into our Biketoberfest plans.

Obviously, with the ACC ban on staff attending motorbike functions, there was no presence....so we didn't have to face the problem of getting nailed either way here for them attending or not attending if it came down to our choice.

[lakedaemonian]

Having read all that has been said. I have to say I'm impressed that Chris has fronted up and attempted answering the questions/accusations put to him.

Not living on the mainland meant on this occasion I was unable to attend the show. I would have attended regardless of wether ACC sponsored it or not. I would not have minded being give a leaflet objecting to the ACC levy and probably been more supprised had there been no representation of the struggle the motorcycle industry and motorcyclists are having with this issue.

I am dissapointed the OP hasn't taken up the invitation of further debate in the thread. and clarify the points Chris has made.

I dont agree that handing out leaflets would have marred the positive vibe of the days intention (anybody would need to have their head well buried in the sand not to realise about the ACC levy issue) In fact as mentioned in other threads its the general public that are behind us and are generally well informed. Its a little patronising to try and protect them from what is happening and only direct this to other motorcyclists.

I have yet to see any ugly scenes relating to motorcyclist protesting this proposed increase. I was part of the contingent that called on John Keys office in Kumeu and can say we were all perfectly respectable and polite and at no point did it stand a chance of being anything else.

If you had your time over again Chris after hearing how the motorcyclists (on KB anyway) feels would you have allowed the freedom of the OP to 'peacfully' hand out his flyers within the general population of the show?

Doh! <-------Homer Simpson voice

I knew somebody would eventually ask that question.

I seriously wish the witness was videotaping the conversation...it either would have eliminated 12 pages or resulted in 120 more .....most likely the former.

Anyone that knows me well(or possibly for some poor bastards, even just a bit) knows I have a small tendency to cover things several times over(and over) to the point of inflicting narcolepsy on my victim...especially when I'm worried about how the message will be perceived....this was one of those times.

Could we, and I in this case, have handled it better?

Certainly......

But could chch_zed have actually responded with something other than "OK" several times when I explained our position in boring detail with several clear opportunities over probably close to 5 minutes to respond WITHOUT trying to burn us with a partial story of what transpired?

Absolutely.....


With 30 hours to think about it, it clearly could have been handled better by both sides.

I'll check back later to see if chch_zed has turned up yet.

[imdying]

My tip to you, lakedaemonian, is to come 100% clean from the getgo and save self righteous spouting about what a hard working saint you are.

Fuck that shit, they'd have been told if they'd actually asked if they'd be welcome to hand shit out there

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

Doh! <-------Homer Simpson voice

I knew somebody would eventually ask that question.

I seriously wish the witness was videotaping the conversation...it either would have eliminated 12 pages or resulted in 120 more .....most likely the former.

Anyone that knows me well(or possibly for some poor bastards, even just a bit) knows I have a small tendency to cover things several times over(and over) to the point of inflicting narcolepsy on my victim...especially when I'm worried about how the message will be perceived....this was one of those times.

Could we, and I in this case, have handled it better?

Certainly......

But could chch_zed have actually responded with something other than "OK" several times when I explained our position in boring detail with several clear opportunities over probably close to 5 minutes to respond WITHOUT trying to burn us with a partial story of what transpired?

Absolutely.....


With 30 hours to think about it, it clearly could have been handled better by both sides.

I'll check back later to see if chch_zed has turned up yet.

Respect. moving on now.

Appologies for my knee jerk first post.

Loosing any respect for the OP however, the silence is defening dude.

[CookMySock]

I can't believe you sissys would even pay attention to someone telling you what you can and can't hand out on a public street... are you guys for real?!?!? Go the hard arse bikers....

This is a very important lesson, and the main message I would like to see the OP and others take from this. You may conduct yourself legally as you choose while in a public place. If someone asks you to take any action that you would rather not, you have every right to decline, either politely or otherwise.

These KBers seem to have aligned themselves with the OP merely because they're anti-ACC, and because they've assumed that Rolling Thunder et alia are in bed with the ACC and are therefore the enemy and not to be trusted.

You combine two unrelated issues. The original objection was that some person had their public activities curtailed, perhaps inappropriately.

I have been involved in running an event on what is normally a public place but for the period the permit covers it becomes a private venue that you can even charge entry for. Take the Hamilton V8's, the Greymouth or Wyndham motorbike racing as examples.

Agreed, but each person there would be an invited person, not a member of the general public.

bikers do not have any sense of common courtesty and are a bunch of misfits running round looking for pitchforks and flame torches.

While bikers don't piss around with words, I think that description is a little "much".

Loosing any respect for the OP however, the silence is defening dude.

That is a blatant troll. As has been noted, there was nothing further to "discuss".

I think all readers have made up their mind one way or the other by this point. There's little or no point banging heads together over it. The vendor isn't going to retract and apologise.

Move on.


Steve

[Starky307]

Well done Chris,
When I first saw you posting I thought to myself, don't bother, just let the fools (see note 1) rant and rave for a while and then it will all blow over.
After reading through all 13 pages (so far) I understand that you (and the other organizers) who put a lot of time and effort into this event, and while being stuck between a rock and a hard place (in regards to the ACC involvement) made the right decisions.

Note 1: By fools I am referring to the people who after hearing one person's side of a situation blow the whole thing out of the water. As an online community we need to stop this from happening as often as it does. (See note 2).

Note 2: I live in hope......

[200BUSA]

Well done Chris,
When I first saw you posting I thought to myself, don't bother, just let the fools (see note 1) rant and rave for a while and then it will all blow over.
After reading through all 13 pages (so far) I understand that you (and the other organizers) who put a lot of time and effort into this event, and while being stuck between a rock and a hard place (in regards to the ACC involvement) made the right decisions.

Note 1: By fools I am referring to the people who after hearing one person's side of a situation blow the whole thing out of the water. As an online community we need to stop this from happening as often as it does. (See note 2).

Note 2: I live in hope......

FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

[sidecar bob]

FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

Doubt it. People just wanted a public hanging & its always better with half the story.

[lakedaemonian]

Chris, Thank you for fronting up and adding a bit more to this saga. You have, I believe, clarified your position, but you haven't contradicted the events that took place.

Maybe you had good intentions,, but the effect of preventing the pamphlets being handed out at the best time and location is to give the impression that despite anything you may have said at the time, you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists.

I stand by my origional response.

Jantar, I'm new posting here......am I correct in assuming you are a Mod?

If not, sorry for bugging ya about the request and please jump down a bit.

If you are a mod, it would appear that I am being preemptively accused of using Jedi Mind Tricks to brainwash the supposedly feebleminded here.

The good news is that according to a fella named Dangerous my Harley Sith Lord powers should have no effect on those who resist the darkside.

I'd like to request the thread remain open.......I have no desire to start a poo flinging contest worth shutting it down and I sincerely hope no one I have somehow indoctrinated doesn't accidentally go all Boba Fett on this thread resulting in it's premature closure.

Just a bit of levity.....you will have no problems from me.....this is your house.....I will respect it and would prefer to avoid losing a chance to get some closure with what I feel has been a somewhat stacked deck which includes your first post and the quiet surrounded the missing in action chch_zed.

I'd like to discuss your 2nd post if you have the time.

"you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists" is what you wrote.

I'm sorry, but this sounds surprisingly like a "you are with us or you are with the terrorists" kind of statement that has pissed off so many folks around the world.

It would appear the only options with the more militant ACC levy folks is choosing between being accepted as a freedom fighting, motorcycle riding, Che Guevara or being branded a dirty nazi ACC collaborator.

I have chosen neither....and that choice doesn't include sitting on the fence for me.

Once again to clarify, we were not siding with or protecting ACC, as in my posts, I have clearly stated when they pulled out of actively participating in the event the week prior to the event.

While I suspect our desired objective is very similiar, it's disappointing to see that differences in means and methodology to achieve the common objective result in immediate questioning of my motorcycle proletariat fervor and motorcycle party loyalty.

I thought motorcycling was about freedom, specifically the freedom to choose more than just A or B?

A poster or three here has questioned why I and others in the industry haven't played a more active/vocal role in leading the fight against the ACC levy increases.

To be honest, for me, I'm still forming my in debth opinion and tweaking my submission.....but superficially I have been sharing my opinion with dozens and dozens of motorcyclists...DAILY... since I first learned of the rise while overseas.

One area where I think several folks here and I differ.....and probably plays a role in the heart of the half-truth accusation starting the thread is what part non motorcyclists play in this effort.

Does anyone actually think we can assume a 100% submission or active participation rate for motorcyclists? If so, I'd take that bet in a heart beat.

Because we pushed chch_zed towards lobbying motorcyclists instead pandering to politically disinterested non-riders attending, one or more in the community here flippantly(in my opinion) stated that motorcyclists already know and should get involved.

Is that REALLY going to happen?

It will be easy enough to find out the number of submissions will it not?

When discounting the number of multiple bike owners, will we see a 90% participation rate in ACC submissions?

80%? 50%? 40%? What do you reckon?

What about non-riders? How many non-riders who are lobbied will make a submission on our behalf? Any? 1% 5% 10%

Isn't it a numbers and probability game?

I also understand there is more to it than just the ACC submission.....I'm lucky enough to have done a bit of lobbying in the past with some success in a previous life.

But knowing a little about it from the coalface back in the day leaves me wondering what makes people think that just because someone owns a business in the industry they automatically possess the skillset to take on a leadership role in industry lobbying efforts....many are not interested.....but many are not suited.

I can clearly recall a fella in NZ a few years ago officially representing firearms owners, quite possibly because he happened to be a firearms dealer, getting absolutely set up and fried where the cause of media death was largely self inflicted.

People on KB have historically whinged about how incompetent dealership staff and owners can be.....yet KBers prod them to take the lead in a rather important battle?

Here in Christchurch, our community has spent the better part of a year trying to trust each other and work together towards a common goal...and we've had some success....hopefully we can leverage it further.

I believe my post and questions are legitimate(minus the cheeky request which I believe is fair comment considering the amount of sh!t tossed my way), and I hope you are able to take the time to consider it and respond thoughtfully and fairly.

Again...sorry for the long-winded post......it's approximating the length and content of the conversation I had with chch_zed

Cheers...

[Jantar]

.....

"you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists" is what you wrote.......

Actually, I said that you gave the impression that you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists. There is a bit of difference when the context is included.

I've responded to your other points by pm.

[lakedaemonian]

Actually, I said that you gave the impression that you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists. There is a bit of difference when the context is included.

I've responded to your other points by pm.

Cheers, got the PM.

[Starky307]

FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

Go back to the first page and read through it again. You will see posts 2,3,4,6,9,10,12 and 15 are all lynching Chris (and fellow organisers) and the event itself. This was all based on what was written and taken as "gospel truth" by one person, the OP.

One of these people has since apologised for his knee jerk reaction, but the rest appear to have drifted off into cyber space...

I'm just saying, there is always two side to every situation and a lot of people seem to have forgotten that around here.

[caseye]

More than one has apologised and allowing this to die a natural is the only way it'll go away, hence no more posts from me.
Good on you Starky307, saying what you believe is something I am all for, meaning what you say is another.
Chris hang in there the flying column is arriving in force.
Good luck with next years Biketoberfest and I hope you keep all your hard won sponsors.

[avgas]

My decision to post, and post at length, is to try and share where we were, If you feel that was wrong, inappropriate, misleading, or an attempt to manipulate all I can do is keep posting to see where it leads and live with the consequences.

After re-reading the whole thread, I can see your problem - and unfortunately it seems to be a personal one that you alone has to manage.
You have proved my assumption that you are a good guy deep down, but unfortunately its not what you say that will get you flamed in the public eye (even worse here), its what you don't say.
I actually assumed from the word go that the original poster had their nickers in a twist - due to not being allowed to be a wedding crasher.
I also would find it difficult to allow him to give out anti-ACC in my ACC event. In fact if someone did try and do something like that - I would be downright pissed off.
But the annoying thing here was - YOU DIDN'T SPEAK YOUR MIND.

I have already spoken my mind (and got flamed for it) about how pissed off I am about ACC's misappropriations of funds. But this is aimed at ACC not you (in fact for organising an event of any calibre i think you need an award!).

So speak your mind - If you don't like sods giving out flyers on your event, say so.......I fricken hate people giving me annoying bits of paper all the time. Even if its anti-ACC its still as usefull as a "free gym membership" or "Jesus saves" propaganda i get every day.