Speed cameras don't save lives

[rastuscat]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all?

[p.dath]

Its still a whining argument.
don't speed no ticket, speed get ticket. No matter how anyone spins it thats what it comes down to.

The issue is not about ticketing or how fast your are travelling. It's about weather speed cameras have any impact on road fatalities.

And this guy is saying that speed cameras don't impact fatality rates, and for that reason, the continued expenditure on buying and operating the units is not warranted. That money would be better spent on other road safety measures.

[oldrider]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all?

No problem and you have a job to do but you used your discretion didn't you break Police rules too?

[oldrider]

The issue is not about ticketing or how fast your are travelling. It's about weather speed cameras have any impact on road fatalities.

And this guy is saying that speed cameras don't impact fatality rates, and for that reason, the continued expenditure on buying and operating the units is not warranted. That money would be better spent on other road safety measures.

Cameras have never been about safety and that reports statistics supports that argument.

Won't make any difference to our crowd though they don't believe in any other view but their own or that of Victoria State in Australia!

[p.dath]

Cameras have never been about safety and that reports statistics supports that argument.

Won't make any difference to our crowd though they don't believe in any other view but their own or that of Victoria State in Australia!

I agree that those who make the decisions have an institutionalised view of speed cameras - that they somehow reduce road fatalities.

The question I keep pondering is how do you change the view of someone who has an institutionalised view. They already have the research, so presenting them with facts will make zero difference.

The only thing I can think of is that you would have to inspire them that there is a batter way of saving lives, and money should be used for that instead.

[BoristheBiter]

The question I keep pondering is how do you change the view of someone who has an institutionalised view. They already have the research, so presenting them with facts will make zero difference.

.

A bit like people who speed?? then cry about a ticket???

[Scuba_Steve]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all?

Think you did well there, I wouldn't mind those things being banned from CBD's or classed as they are, Trucks. Hope you still got your donuts for that one.

[Ocean1]

What say you all?

You could probably make a case for a lower limit, there. But not a very good one. Wouldn’t work, ticketing people don't change their speed, (you'd already noticed that, eh?). Also, it’s a bit much to expect drivers to deal with speed changes every 100metres or so.

I reckon that beyond a certain point you have to accept that both drivers and pedestrians have behaviours that are not amenable to official admonition. Which leaves you with either accepting whatever casualties that entails or spending a bunch of cash to keep ‘em separate. Gets back to that question again, dunit? The one we’re not allowed an answer to: What’s a life worth? And who gets to pay for it?

[davebullet]

What say you all?

Problem with people like that is they won't learn. Your ticket is probably water off a ducks back to a Merivale inhabitant, so even ticketing her she STILL wouldn't have learnt.

I recently got pulled over the tailing a police officer in a pursuit. I was at a safe distance and the officer was pulling away. He was pissed off at me and pulled me over. I acknowledged what I did and apologised. No ticket.

I think most officers are in the job to help people in the first instance. I don't think they are bonused on the basis of tickets are they? They are a salaried workforce (?). If they can see someone is not the stereotypical "who gives a fuck" person, the person shows they are taking on board what the officer is saying, the officer will be inclined to use whatever outcome gets the message across. If it's a warning, then it's a job well done.

[JMemonic]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area.

She had been travelling in the outside lane (right hand of 2), and was passing a centre island on which were standing 3 or 4 people, including 2 kids. The island was one of those pedestrian refuges, where you can cross to and wait for traffic in the other direction to clear.

The people had crossed the lanes the woman was driving on, and were waiting on the refuge for the traffic in the other direction to clear.

The island is, maybe, 1 to 1.5 metres wide, with no barriers. It has a keep left sign on each end. Basically, 4 people on that refuge at once meant limited space for each of them.

Anyway, using a laser I checked the womans speed at 67 as she was passing within 2 metres of the pedestrians.

I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

Anyway, my point is, in her 4WD Merivale tractor (Land Rover Freelander) she no doubt felt that what she was doing was perfectly safe. Brilliant sound insulation, fantastic climate air cond, road tyres (the SUV had never been off road), all contributed to her subjective view of safety in her travels. I felt for the people on the island, who had a 2 tonne SUV steaming past them at close proximity.

I guess I am putting this out as an example of how the drivers environment often makes the driver feel safer at speed than she maybe was. Her subjective view of the safety of her speed was significantly different to my view. It was one of those times when I felt that even the 50 km/h limit may have been too high.

What say you all?

Ahh rastuscat you have hit a nail on the head, the subjective view of what is safe is down to the individual and that individuals view is skewed towards what is safe for me, a Merivale tractor owner would be far worse in the "me" stakes, a more suitable punishment would have been for her to have to stand in the centre of the safety island you describe for thirty minutes with an appropriate billboard, something like, slow down consider my safety too, but it would never happen.

Anyhow as a society what can we do to improve the subjective view? As above, a more appropriate punishment to the situation, fines don't work, her view has not changed at all, I would lay money on her travelling at the same speed down that road next time as well.

A big step would be better education of drivers for the future, a better graduated driver licence system that requires more training, moving the age for learners licences from age 15 to 17-18 for cars, at 15 you can start on a moped. Targeted campaigns the reward appropriate driver behaviour would be nice to see but hey the system is punishment geared and has the belief that everyone is guilty of something, its just a matter of time before we catch them.

[p.dath]

Had an argument with a woman recently about the ticket I was writing her. 67 in a 50 km/h area
....
I broke my basic rule, in that instead of just writing the ticket, I told her that what she was doing was very unsafe. Wow, did I get a lecture back about revenue collecting, catching burglars, how she was a very safe driver, blah blah blah.

And this is the crux of ticketing - based on the drivers reaction, do you really think the ticket will result in the driver being more situationally aware of the dangers presented?

Not a dig at you - but for me, it reflects that you can not ticket a problem out of existence. That approach just does not work. The veracity of the woman's response shows this.

For me, the time to have resolved the issue was long ago - when that driver was getting their licence, and then through the opportunity of ongoing driver education and improvement.

But we don't offer people the opportunity to have ongoing driver education in NZ. And we don't teach new drivers to be considerate of other road users (which includes pedestrians).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. An environment needs to be created that encourages driver education, and provides a *voluntary* processes for drivers to continually improve their road user education.

For some reason our system thinks you can invest 10 to 20 hours of time, gain a full licence, and never need any further training to drive a machine proven capable of injuring and killing time and time again.

[Ocean1]

He was pissed off at me and pulled me over. I acknowledged what I did and apologised. No ticket.

I'm left feeling hugely underwhelmed that we're to be held accountable for the various moods of the local constabulary. Even less that I need to apologise for it.

In fact so offensive is the odour emanating from the various attempts at “educating” me that I’ve long since given up even keeping tabs on the latest ways I need to behave in order that I might be deemed acceptable.

Fuckem, if they deem my actions unpalatable then they needed not to lie to me. They needed not to ping me for things I didn’t do and they needed to respect my need to manage my life free from unjustified interference. I’m no longer listening.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm left feeling hugely underwhelmed that we're to be held accountable for the various moods of the local constabulary. Even less that I need to apologise for it.

In fact so offensive is the odour emanating from the various attempts at “educating” me that I’ve long since given up even keeping tabs on the latest ways I need to behave in order that I might be deemed acceptable.

Fuckem, if they deem my actions unpalatable then they needed not to lie to me. They needed not to ping me for things I didn’t do and they needed to respect my need to manage my life free from unjustified interference. I’m no longer listening.

And that statement is why it will never work.
Society is too full of "fuck you i will do what i want" people, and too many of these people can't ride/drive for shit and they are on the road with us.

[Grantman_]

speed cameras have been sold on the representation they reduce the road toll. This reason is apparently the public justification for their existence. If this is proven to be false, what are the officials going to say to the public? If speed cameras are not achieving their public goal they shouldn't exist, regardless of whose is, and who is not, speeding.

As a motorist who has had no problems with traffic police this what I want to know. I don't take kindly to being lied to.

[Ocean1]

too many of these people can't ride/drive for shit and they are on the road with us.

Wana race?