The welfare state

[marie_speeds]

.....the labia effect

That is definitely part of the problem.....

[SPman]

..........basically those who are in the group are safe , those who are perceived as outside the group are marginalized and the anger from problems within the first group is directed towards the 2nd group ( minority )
......
IMHO

Stephen

You bin reading John Ralston Saul..........? Read "The Unconscious Civilization" - it's helping me to try and clarify a few ideas in my head.....

[Howie]

Yes - Men create solo mothers ... usually by walking out the door ...

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.

If it was that black and white a solution would be easier but human beings have a nasty habit of not conforming to stereotypes.

The trouble is that one unplanned pregnancy introduces you into a world that many people and unprepared to deal with and they become trapped. Of course some are well prepared and embrace it fully.

Its NOT just women. Men (well males, they aint men) are out there acting as sperm donors left right and centre and then just walking away bitching about paying child support....

Thats if they have an income to pay child suport from, Incidently child support in it's current format is a joke.

I agree on both counts.
But as Ronin points out (to paraphrase) we have a few generations whom take their cue from their parents - it is how they have been raised. So the cycle needs to be broken.

It would be nice to eveluate each case on it merits, but that's never going to happen the way it should. So the govt unfortunately must pass laws that affect all.

Some pain, whilst it may very well be unpleasent is going to have to be fealt by all if the effects to hit their target.




I note also marie_speeds comment about not increasing the DPB for subsequent children concieved when already on the DPB. I think that certainly has merit and is something the govt could implement whilst not creating a lot of colateral damage.

The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible. How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

[neels]

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.

Too true, most (not all) of the breakups involving people I know have been due to the woman booting the man out, after making sure they have the house/car/finances sorted to their advantage.

[The Stranger:Me]

The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible.

Yet as laudable as that goal of keeping children out of poverty is, the presnt system fails miserably (i.e. needs some form of reform)

We had a contract to upgrade all KFC stores in the Auckland area many moons ago.
Where alterations were minor we started at closing time and would have it open for business the next day. This may go on for several days.
Where the alterations were major and a store had to close we worked 24/7 to have it open again ASAP.
This work was staged over several months. Under NO circumstance were we allowed to close a store or even work in a store out of hours on or immediately before benefit day.
I assure you, it wasn't the kids that were befefiting from the benefit.

There are numerous examples. Check out the TAB and pubs on benefit day for example.

[The Stranger:Me]

How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

How would you propose we create those jobs?

[Howie]

Yet as laudable as that goal of keeping children out of poverty is, the presnt system fails miserably (i.e. needs some form of reform)

We had a contract to upgrade all KFC stores in the Auckland area many moons ago.
Where alterations were minor we started at closing time and would have it open for business the next day. This may go on for several days.
Where the alterations were major and a store had to close we worked 24/7 to have it open again ASAP.
This work was staged over several months. Under NO circumstance were we allowed to close a store or even work in a store out of hours on or immediately before benefit day.
I assure you, it wasn't the kids that were befefiting from the benefit.

There are numerous examples. Check out the TAB and pubs on benefit day for example.

But are you talking about Single parents? Unemployed people? or sickness Benefit people? or is it a minority of each of those doing what you see as wasting money on takeaways/betting, or drinking at a pub? Do they see that as there one little luxury in a world where they feel down trodden, and marginalised by the moral majority?

I do agree that present system isn't working, But how to reform it so that it is fair to those in need and to break the cycle of dependence I don't know.
What I do know from my personal experiences as a single parent from the time my youngest was in there first year of school is that it is easy to be marginalised by being different to Majority. (and no I never went on a Benefit)

How would you propose we create those jobs?

Now if I knew the answer to that I wouldn't have any worry’s as I could become a very wealthy Person.

What I do know is that if the present levels of high youth unemployment aren't solved fairly quickly with meaningful opportunities for displaced young people to feel positive about life then NZ is going to pay a very high price in a few years, and the current welfare bill well be a minor problem. You now have a large group of unemployed young people in the "ME Generation" that aren't learning about work ethics and feel like society is casting them aside as a problem.

My own answer is probably going to be to migrate overseas so that my Children have a better chance of starting down a meaningful career path. The current state of the NZ economy is only one of a Number of reason's for this choice.

[rainman]

I can't say I'm too upset now that my labour being "casualised" - can't ever imagine going back to a real job.
...
Reality is the world is about who you know. Build relationships, it goes a long way.
May I enquire where you are from?
...
You're still sounding like you're relying on someone else for your future.
Fucked if I would. I mean, isn't that the ultimate test of one's worth.
You rely on your abilities and wits to survive,

Sorry for the late reply, been busy at work and study.
Your point would make sense if it was as calvinistically simple as "work hard, get/keep job, rely on self". Unfortunately other factors have some impact too, like stupid and greedy US bankers, short-sighted politicians, idiot bosses, bigoted nationalistic executives, GFCs etc. And yes, sometimes missteps and mistakes. Preferring permanent to contract work is not a moral decision - it's just good economic sense. If I get a gig with a shit hot rate for 3 months, and have jack for the rest of the year, vs. steady 12 months at a lower rate, guess which one I'll pick? I have a family to feed - contract work normally carries a premium... I'd give that away in exchange for the certainty of a paycheck. Common sense.

I live in a society. When I want to eat, I use a supermarket, or a farmers market, or something. I don't go hunt all the food I eat. So why is depending on an economy to provide me fair exchange for my labour a bad idea? Doesn't mean I'm a whinging co-dependent, doesn't mean I don't always deliver more value than I'm paid. (Also I suck at sales and marketing/shameless self-promotion, but not at hard work and ability).

Of course the world is about who you know. I (now) have very good business connections and a big fat LinkedIn network. One of my points though is that "who you know" doesn't work for immigrants, and kiwis, although not necessarily racist, are pretty parochial. (I blame rugby). When the bad times arrive, it's the foreigners that get pushed under the bus first.

BTW you might enquire where I'm from but I might decline to answer, on the basis that the general response would be equal parts entirely predictable and disappointing.

They tend to be arrogant self serving biggots who think the world owes them a living.

I rest my case.

Do you have the tie to go with them though?

(weak attempt at Nazi joke)

Again. And that's just picking two of the obvious cases.

Go for it - boots 'n all. You'll get there.

There's some good advice in this thread for Mr SmokeU. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if he took it.

It's a bit hard to make a living when I can't find a job and when polytech don't want me.

Northtec and others run free entry-level horticulture courses with NO prerequisites but a pulse. Two days a week. Even give you a free textbook or set of boots, you just have to get yourself there on time for a few months, and not be too much of an arsehole. You are expected to learn a bit and pay attention, and to dig, prune, weed, plant etc. (Yes, real dirt, real spades, and sometimes it rains). Plenty of opportunity to show willing.

The people on the course are a real mixed bag, all ages, colours, social circumstances etc - so you get to learn how to interact with a range of people, which sounds like something you could work on. And even if you don't want to grow up to be a gardener, it shows future employers you got off your arse and did something (plus it will teach you to grow some of your own food, and how to learn in a different way to school). You will make some new friends and connections, and if you're not too much of a prick the instructor might even act as a referee for you.

Work outside is also proven to help with depression. (And if you're long term unemployed and not depressed, you should lay off the dak).

Here's a career plan for you.
...
I'll leave the rest up to you.

Arsehole washing? Jeez, you'd have to be desperate...

[Brian d marge]

You bin reading John Ralston Saul..........? Read "The Unconscious Civilization" - it's helping me to try and clarify a few ideas in my head.....

you bin readin , I know him from somewhere

Actually it ( i think from memory ) I got it from Uncle Sigmund .......

but yes once you realise that Bin lyin is actually the prez of ( insert your favorite country here ) ...it does all sort of make sense

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Another sterotype/myth. It is not always the Man that walks out. Just as it not always the woman who ends up being the main care provider to the child/children.



Thats if they have an income to pay child suport from, Incidently child support in it's current format is a joke.



The one problem with all this, and something that has only been mentioned here as a comment about values being passed on from generation to generation is that with the DPB in particular it is not about the Single Parent. It is about supporting and keeping Children out of poverty as much as possible. How do we turn around the Generational thing of welfare dependence?? Maybe by building a society where there are sufficient Jobs that most people can find a Job to do that earns them a living.

To my mind is it any wonder that our young ones (late teens to early twenties) are turning to having children to get more money out of the GOVT?
With youth unemployment running at 27%, and a lack of true entry level jobs with any training or advancement prospects.

Not all young people are academically inclined, or understand how the Business and the economy works, or where the money they get on a benefit originates from.

See my post on Mexico , there are schemes working that give people hope ,,,,,but the cost money and more importantly its a vote loser

Stephen

[Usarka]

See my post on Mexico , there are schemes working that give people hope ,,,,,but the cost money and more importantly its a vote loser

You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.

[oneofsix]

You'd probably find the Mexican parents are less likely to beat the crap out of the kids, lock them in the car and then go play the pokies for 10 hours.

Really? how have you managed to avoid American TV and movies all your life? Oops that ignores Top Gear, sorry guys. But American propaganda aside Mexicans are humans so why should they be different? need emoticon of mexican asleep under his hat

[Paul in NZ]

Ive been looking into HOW the society changed , ( bloody well deleted it by accident so have to start again ! )
Sustainability , is the word I want to use and a return to the community ie building a less individualistic community structure . ( growing veges and Giving them to the old lady down the street )
I joke about passive resistance , but it has its point. watch the toys come out of the cot when a whole lot of people suddenly don't use ( generate a revenue stream for the governmental feed trough )

I doesn't mean going without , just means NOT using credit , and generating produce rather than service . ( hows those runner beans )

I don't know ..........., but what I do know is that We give things value and our values are misplaced ( why see my earlier post about Mexico as to why in the poor)

Our values system was shaped by Marketing ( Edward Bernays ) and focus groups tell the polys what to say , they ( the focus groups, who tend to be by default the voting block the pollys want ..ie Middle class.) in turn feel put upon by their lot in life , ( high taxes )
and then you get the labia effect ( not sure I ll have to look at me notes ) basically those who are in the group are safe , those who are perceived as outside the group are marginalized and the anger from problems within the first group is directed towards the 2nd group ( minority )

its not 100% clear in my head yet so its hard to type ... but roughly tis what happens ( I think) and you see it here on KB all the time ......

So ... look after you family and neighbors , and don't feed the trough in wellington , and never let a dollar escape the shores of NZ and Vote for the party that does the most for the community ....NOT the individual

IMHO

Stephen

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...

[racefactory]

Northtec and others run free entry-level horticulture courses with NO prerequisites but a pulse. Two days a week. Even give you a free textbook or set of boots, you just have to get yourself there on time for a few months, and not be too much of an arsehole. You are expected to learn a bit and pay attention, and to dig, prune, weed, plant etc. (Yes, real dirt, real spades, and sometimes it rains). Plenty of opportunity to show willing.

The people on the course are a real mixed bag, all ages, colours, social circumstances etc - so you get to learn how to interact with a range of people, which sounds like something you could work on. And even if you don't want to grow up to be a gardener, it shows future employers you got off your arse and did something (plus it will teach you to grow some of your own food, and how to learn in a different way to school). You will make some new friends and connections, and if you're not too much of a prick the instructor might even act as a referee for you.

Fuck me! You even have to have a qualification to shovel shit and do someone's gardening now? How depressing.

[oneofsix]

Look (to quote John Key) I agree.... The shift in values was one point I ignored in my rave because I couldnt capture my feelings about it in a short sentence.

I'll keep thinking about it but I think the shift in values is tied into the shorter technology cycles that exist now. Todays must have gizmo is old junk in 6 months...

nah don't agree Paul. I don't think it is the short tech live cycles that has shifted the values, if anything they are a symptom but really I think it is more media spin than actually short life cycles, FFS they were talking fibre to the home back in the Post Office (80s for those who are too young, that's 1980s) and we still don't have it
We have gone from a system that valued God and country to one that values money. Think Boldger indicated the shift when he said the rich should be our new heros, screw Sir Ed and Colin Meads its all about back stabbing bastards like Richwite and Faye who will even rip off their own country. With the old values, like most religions, there was an element of honour the meek now it is squash them.