Prime Minister Dotcom?

[mashman]

Absolutely correct unless this point is sorted out nothing else will be "allowed to succeed" because that small group (Deathly dedicated) hold all the aces!

Nothing more left to say really ... fix it or forget it and just go with the flow!

Under NOW, will that small group still have the power that they currently have?

How's about a 3rd option, change it.

Inflation rate?

Excellent.

it's called supply and demand.

It's called stupidity.

So if your smarter you shouldn't earn more.
Didn't work so well for Russia.

Also a guy named Ponzi rings a bell when assuming that just because people earn the same.....one won't rip off another?

It doesn't work in the financial system, coz measuring smart by profession is like measuring the temperature of what is on the other side of the universe . We ain't following the Russian system man.

How can you rip someone off if there's no money? Why rip someone off when the thing you want is free?

Should?

According to who?

'Cause the people paying for that knowledge don't agree with you.

Which kinda makes your opinion on what they "should" earn completely irrelevant.

But like I keep saying, you go right ahead and offer whoever you want whatever you like for their knowledge and the work they use it for, don't let the fact that nobody else agrees with you slow you down.

Me, Daughter, Wife and others that I have spoken to.

I'm paying for that knowledge, as is my Wife, as are those I have spoken with. And we agree.

Which kinda makes your last sentence about as fully thought through as everything else you trot out in a half baked fashion. As my Wife points out. It's the workers who do the work that should be receiving the rewards for a good job, not the management who oversee them. That doesn't happen. Your romanticism is somewhat flawed... but don't let that slow you down.

It's that people, who haven't thought things through up til the point in time when we have a conversation, do agree with me that I won't slow down. You're supposed to be smart, right?

[Ocean1]

Me, Daughter, Wife and others that I have spoken to.

So, very approximately: fuck all.

The bin man doesn't count.

I'm paying for that knowledge, as is my Wife, as are those I have spoken with. And we agree.

Then you obviously don't have a problem paying the market rate.

What's your beef again?

Which kinda makes your last sentence about as fully thought through as everything else you trot out in a half baked fashion. As my Wife points out. It's the workers who do the work that should be receiving the rewards for a good job, not the management who oversee them. That doesn't happen. Your romanticism is somewhat flawed... but don't let that slow you down.

So what about the vast majority of managers that contribute more than the workers they're responsible for? Do they get to dictate how much they should get paid too? Or is it just "workers" defined by your approval?

See, your fantasy about managers stealing the "infinite" money made available by the extreme exertions of the downtrodden worker simply isn't real. In the real world people are paid largely in accordance to an agreement with their client.

It's that people, who haven't thought things through up til the point in time when we have a conversation, do agree with me that I won't slow down. You're supposed to be smart, right?

Yes. Smart enough to be able to earn pretty much whatever I want. Smart enough to have thought through the generally accepted understanding that anyone attempting to dictate prices outside of buyer and seller is a thief.

That's not necessarily very smart. And yet you continue to insist that you can't live with your own convictions until everyone else behaves like you want them to. Which simply makes you a thief without the courage to do anything about it. Not a very smart one.

[oldrider]

Under NOW, will that small group still have the power that they currently have? How's about a 3rd option, change it.

Yes you are right ... change it by all means but the "small group" are (currently) untouchable and unless they are exposed (world wide) they will soon infiltrate and control or destroy your (our any other) new idea to their advantage!

Financial control of the world is central the groups ambitions so if you tinker with finance you are kicking their rice bowl!

Many powerful world figures or groups have already tried this at their (and our) peril.

"Give me control of the finances of the world I care not who makes the laws" is a very very powerful statement!

Regardless of who makes or made the statement it is a line drawn deep into the sand if they can back it up!

The small group in control of world finance can and do back it up to the extent (and beyond) of causing and controlling world wars!

[Ocean1]

Yes you are right ... change it by all means but the "small group" are (currently) untouchable and unless they are exposed (world wide) they will soon infiltrate and control or destroy your (our any other) new idea to their advantage!

He don't need any stinkin' bank's help!

Financial control of the world is central the groups ambitions so if you tinker with finance you are kicking their rice bowl!

How did China avoid becoming controlled by that "small group"?

And how are they now more powerful than those untouchables?

[mashman]

So, very approximately: fuck all.

The bin man doesn't count.

Then you obviously don't have a problem paying the market rate.

What's your beef again?

So what about the vast majority of managers that contribute more than the workers they're responsible for? Do they get to dictate how much they should get paid too? Or is it just "workers" defined by your approval?

Maybe they should have more 360 reviews... there's a reason that they're frowned upon.

See, your fantasy about managers stealing the "infinite" money made available by the extreme exertions of the downtrodden worker simply isn't real. In the real world people are paid largely in accordance to an agreement with their client.

Yes. Smart enough to be able to earn pretty much whatever I want. Smart enough to have thought through the generally accepted understanding that anyone attempting to dictate prices outside of buyer and seller is a thief.

So you're blinkered and only chasing the $. That explains quite a few things. Interesting admission though.

That's not necessarily very smart. And yet you continue to insist that you can't live with your own convictions until everyone else behaves like you want them to. Which simply makes you a thief without the courage to do anything about it. Not a very smart one.

I'm smart enough to realise that I am not an island and that my family requires money in order to suffer because I feel differently about things. SO no, again, you're assertion is wrong. I'd say try again, but you're getting a tad boring.

[mashman]

Yes you are right ... change it by all means but the "small group" are (currently) untouchable and unless they are exposed (world wide) they will soon infiltrate and control or destroy your (our any other) new idea to their advantage!

Financial control of the world is central the groups ambitions so if you tinker with finance you are kicking their rice bowl!

Many powerful world figures or groups have already tried this at their (and our) peril.

"Give me control of the finances of the world I care not who makes the laws" is a very very powerful statement!

Regardless of who makes or made the statement it is a line drawn deep into the sand if they can back it up!

The small group in control of world finance can and do back it up to the extent (and beyond) of causing and controlling world wars!

I understand that. How do they maintain their influence?

That's why NOW virtualises the financial system. It's there, producing GDP, but it isn't.

Then when I get my ducks in a row and am perilised, you can say you told me so.

It is. And it has been proven to be true.

They can, until they can't.... coz that sort of battle is going to require a group of very loyal soldiers to quell their population.

Now you're just making stuff up Didn't you know that war is human nature and cannot be stopped.

[mashman]

How did China avoid becoming controlled by that "small group"?

And how are they now more powerful than those untouchables?

They control their own money supply and have the same military might... something that simply can't be taken/controlled. Unless of course China capitulates. Same as a nuclear deterrent.

[mashman]

So, very approximately: fuck all.

And the Pope.

“Inequality is the root of social ills ... as long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world’s problems or, for that matter, to any problems.”

[TheDemonLord]

You said: "That a pretty incompatible system if 99.9% of it has to be destroyed so that 0.1% can exist". That's life I said. Things die as a natural progression, so essentially you're saying that life is an incompatible system. The financial system should be next.

You put it forward as a compatable system that had no centreal governance - now you are agreeing with me it is Incompatable - which is it?

But we're talking financial crimes. As for personal responsibility, make your mind up, either people have it or they don't. Hint: an indicidual is a member of the people . In a system that legislates for the ripping off of people, it's hardly surprising that it happens. The law has replaced morality, in fact when morality comes into the argument, some folks generally trot out all sort of little meme's like, hippy, lefty, doo-gooder etc... and all to hide their own lack of morals. NOW can provide an environment where that is less likely to happen on a day to day basis. Doesn't mean that that will happen across the board, you'd have to be mad to think ptherwise... but it certainly doesn't mean that things wouldn't change for the better... far from it.

What are the reasons for non-financial crime? There are many. One of them will be financial stress (payiong for Doctors, ever increasing bills, 55% of the population struggling to the point where they need to be subsidised etc...). MAYBE, so of your list could be addressed through less stress.

I wasn't talking about just Financial crimes - I have proved people will be cunts with NOW or without, so one of the core reasons to switch to NOW doesn't exist. As for the last part is probably the biggest criminal apologist lines I have ever heard 'Oh, they are just criminals cause they are Stressed' I get Stressed yet I don't commit any of those crimes - Either I must be the lord high saint of Holiness or I just have stronger will power

It's what currently happens! If there is a car on a car lot (yes, they will exist), thenyou have your choice of those cars. There will be no list. As I said, get over it. A debate is a two way street. It requires some understanding of both sides of the argument in order to make sweeping generalisations. I understand both sides of the argument. You don't. So all you have proven is that you don't understand NOW in the slightest.

Or I understand NOW better than you think I do - The Cars that will be Imported into this country will be those that are approved within whatever Budgeting system NOW uses to deal with the rest of the world. There will be no high end BMW, Audi, No Ferraris or Lamborgini, if there is not my choice to go from a Mazda Car lot to a BMW Car lot (because I want a BMW) then NOW has removed my Choice to choose.

Unless of course the Cars on the Car lot will magic into existence or NZ suddenly starts Car manufacturing again.

@a quick lesson. A greeting is not inate. It has been learned and is seen as a sign of respect. I don't greet everyone I meet with a handshake/kiss/bow etc... It is learned behaviour. Go shake hands with someone who has never chaken handsbefore and you're going to have to explain why you want to shake hands.

Actually Greetings are innate - its impossible to have a Social Group without it, but the Form a Greeting takes is Learned - they are seperate Concepts - like IQ and Knowledge.

WTF have you been smoking man. You told me to design the system. I told you I needed to get money so that I could pay for people's time. It's how it currently happens. End of.

And I said - Why would you need Money? Afterall, I imagine the same proponents of this Scheme would be all to happy to contribute to design it for free. earlier in the Debate you asserted that not all people currently do things for Money - I asserted that People do things for Reward (be it financial or otherwise) if I am right - then currently to design such a system, you will need to pay people. if you are right - you will be able to get people to do it for the love of Doing it.

You saying that you need to pay people confirms my position and invalidates yours.

you have no idea.

you have no idea.

You know that your opponent has lost a debate when he can't come back at you with a counter arguement - I think the above brings me to Match point I dare say, but to be content with just this cutting remark would mean that I hadn't submitted a counter arguement so very quickly

Bosnia/Serbia
Rwanda
Iraq and the Kurds
Somalia

The list goes on - all long chapters in the very long book of Humans being Inhuman to one another - so clearly I do have an Idea - but better than an Idea, I have something to back up my arguements with

I didn't ask for stats. You used them to backup your argument. I didn't read the links. Yeah, you win. I didn;t argue the statistics

Still on Match point then

Does the majotiry of the population kill? No. You said human nature needs to be common trait. Get your story straight son.

Remember I said Violence - Violence can be anything from throwing a punch to going on a killing spree - my Facts are completely straight, I merely chose killing as the ultimate expression of our Violent evolutionary past.

WE aren't, a small number of people are... as it is THEY wanting war, and they PAY people to act on their behalf. Why did the majority of the US/UK not want war with Iraq? Why do the Palestinian and Israeli people not fight to the death?

That's a different arguement - but for what its worth, I support the war for Iraq, not for the reasons given (they were flimsier than your NOW theory) but because at the end of the day, Saddamn was a Genocidal nut case who used Chemical weapons on his own people.

Of course there is. You telling me that you know me better than I know me only makes me laugh and marvel at the stupidity of you so called smart people. I have refuted your logic and reason, therefore it is not logic and reason, so so far you have had my courtesy. You putting words into my mouth is not courtesy.

Actually, I am saying I know better And here is why. You have refuted nothing, you have a system that will only work if everyone works together for the common good of the Community, if everyone exercises a high level of Personal Responsibility and no one tries to fuck other people over.

and I have said - based on the long and colourful history of humanity - both when similar systems were tried and without needing to try it ourselves that it will fail - because those 3 factors required are incompatible with Humans.

Fuck off, I read the first 6 words and refuse to read that paragraph any further. There is no justification for war.

Hit a Nerve did I there? Let me ask you this, you are standing on the Borders of Rwanda, watching Men, Women and Children getting mutilated, Raped and Tortured in the most horrific and cruel fashion by tribesmen with Machetes. You are currently the commander of a Tank battalion from a different country.

Crossing the border means you start a war.

Do you cross?

if Yes - then there is clearly justification for wars - to stop a greater evil. It must be the absolute last resort, but still be an option.
if no - then you are a despicable human being for being able to stand by and watch cruelty to happen, with the power to stop it, yet do nothing.

Oh and the situation I picked has occured, and I am betting, will occour with similar circumstances again.

How do you convert the money? You order it at the bank (estate agency, bureau de change etc...), if it's there, you pick it up there and then. I don't understand what you mean in the rest of your sentence.

You Exchange money, you don't Order it. you need to have the money first - if you don't have the money (as under NOW) then you have nothing to Exchange.

Did I say you couldn't have a credit card under NOW? No, you made it up. Repayments requires money .

if there are no tills and no where to pay, no Credit Card companies (because money has been removed) how and why would I have a Credit Card?

... I didn't say noone could go. I didn't say everyone can't go. I'm from the UK too and I don't NEED to go back for every important family events. As I said, I'm not saying that NOW will stop you either. You're making shit up again... do try to stop it.

No, your comment inferred that you didn't see a reason why people would want or need to travel overseas - I called you out on this being incredibly short sighted, but I will give you some grace on this, maybe it was a poorly worded comment.

Of course, if you had the same education as a Lawyer, maybe you would have been able to word the comment to reflect what you mean?

I disagree.

Cool - I think we can safely establish we Disagree

Not content with putting words into my mouth, you go ahead and put words into everyone else's mouth too.

I look at what people currently do and base my assumptions/theories off that - if there was a major shift in how we interacted with our fellow humans, then I might change my tune a little, but we haven't changed much in how we interact in around 2000 years of recorded history, so I don't see any changes happening soon.

I've already explained how NOW will be different in regards to the groups holding the controls. If you don't accept that, that's your problem.

Ya Know, This is almost exactly what Lenin and Marx said 100 years ago - funnily enough, it didn't end up different - did it?

in fact, it ended up much worse and resulted in the largest country on earth collapsing in under itself.

[Ocean1]

What? You've got more support than your wife, daughter and the bin man?
You do have a problem paying the market rate?
You don't want to answer the question on account of your advanced idiocy?

Maybe they should have more 360 reviews... there's a reason that they're frowned upon.

Suits me, consultants do quite well managing them.

What, cat got yer tongue dude?
Managers do steal infinitely available cash from their downtrodden employees?
People shouldn't be free to agree the price of their own shit?
You reckon removing money will prevent that devious practice?
Gwarne, we're all friends here, you can say why you'd like to get involved in everyone else's god damned business with impunity.

Honest.

So you're blinkered and only chasing the $. That explains quite a few things. Interesting admission though.

Eyes wide open sport, I'm interested in the money that represents the value my clients agree my services are worth. And I'm fully aware that you'd like to dictate that price, but the fact of the matter is there's no reason you should have any say in that process whatsoever.

I'm smart enough to realise that I am not an island and that my family requires money in order to suffer because I feel differently about things. SO no, again, you're assertion is wrong. I'd say try again, but you're getting a tad boring.

So again, you don't want to expose yourself or your family to the effects of your plan to enforce uniform income and associated benefits until your in a position to force everyone else to comply as well?

Do you really expect any buy-in to that from anyone outside your family?


Ok, ok: And the bin man.




Oh all RIGHT: And few serial underachievers that haven't got a hope of ever earning a median wage.

[oldrider]

How did China avoid becoming controlled by that "small group"? And how are they now more powerful than those untouchables?

Good question but are you only assuming that they (China) are not already under the "small groups" interest or control!

Besides which if needed there are always the guns of America and the rest of the "free world" to call upon should they be required! (All been done before)

[oldrider]

They can, until they can't.

Small fry not even in the same ball park as those who control world money and events!

[mashman]

You put it forward as a compatable system that had no centreal governance - now you are agreeing with me it is Incompatable - which is it?

A natural progression.

I wasn't talking about just Financial crimes - I have proved people will be cunts with NOW or without, so one of the core reasons to switch to NOW doesn't exist. As for the last part is probably the biggest criminal apologist lines I have ever heard 'Oh, they are just criminals cause they are Stressed' I get Stressed yet I don't commit any of those crimes - Either I must be the lord high saint of Holiness or I just have stronger will power

You have proven nothing. You have assumed. I agreed with your assumption. It's still an assumption. You just haven't been in a position to stress you then.

Or I understand NOW better than you think I do - The Cars that will be Imported into this country will be those that are approved within whatever Budgeting system NOW uses to deal with the rest of the world. There will be no high end BMW, Audi, No Ferraris or Lamborgini, if there is not my choice to go from a Mazda Car lot to a BMW Car lot (because I want a BMW) then NOW has removed my Choice to choose.

Unless of course the Cars on the Car lot will magic into existence or NZ suddenly starts Car manufacturing again.

You quite obviously don't. You no listen.

Actually Greetings are innate - its impossible to have a Social Group without it, but the Form a Greeting takes is Learned - they are seperate Concepts - like IQ and Knowledge.

What, you can't just walk into a room without greeting people?

And I said - Why would you need Money? Afterall, I imagine the same proponents of this Scheme would be all to happy to contribute to design it for free. earlier in the Debate you asserted that not all people currently do things for Money - I asserted that People do things for Reward (be it financial or otherwise) if I am right - then currently to design such a system, you will need to pay people. if you are right - you will be able to get people to do it for the love of Doing it.

You saying that you need to pay people confirms my position and invalidates yours.

Not everyone does everything for reward either. You really don't get it bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa. My 10 year old does. It won't be forcing anyone to do anything, neither will NOW.

Given the current system I will be paying people for the design of NOW. It's not a hard concept to grasp as that's what currently happens.

You know that your opponent has lost a debate when he can't come back at you with a counter arguement - I think the above brings me to Match point I dare say, but to be content with just this cutting remark would mean that I hadn't submitted a counter arguement so very quickly

Bosnia/Serbia
Rwanda
Iraq and the Kurds
Somalia

The list goes on - all long chapters in the very long book of Humans being Inhuman to one another - so clearly I do have an Idea - but better than an Idea, I have something to back up my arguements with

I'm not competing. Again, something you fail to grasp. You won 30 posts ago... not sure what, but you did, now go and reward yourself. Cutting remark? Where, I must have missed it.

Are those wars still on? I'm surprised the US and their Nobel Prize winning puppet hasn't stopped them.

Still on Match point then

Like I said, you won.

Remember I said Violence - Violence can be anything from throwing a punch to going on a killing spree - my Facts are completely straight, I merely chose killing as the ultimate expression of our Violent evolutionary past.

You must greet people in the strangest of ways.

That's a different arguement - but for what its worth, I support the war for Iraq, not for the reasons given (they were flimsier than your NOW theory) but because at the end of the day, Saddamn was a Genocidal nut case who used Chemical weapons on his own people.

So IS Mugabe... but they still haven't gone after him. I agree with removing him a la Osama, but not the war that took place.

Actually, I am saying I know better And here is why. You have refuted nothing, you have a system that will only work if everyone works together for the common good of the Community, if everyone exercises a high level of Personal Responsibility and no one tries to fuck other people over.

and I have said - based on the long and colourful history of humanity - both when similar systems were tried and without needing to try it ourselves that it will fail - because those 3 factors required are incompatible with Humans.

Not everyone needs to work together, show personal responsibility etc... Similar is not the same.

Hit a Nerve did I there? Let me ask you this, you are standing on the Borders of Rwanda, watching Men, Women and Children getting mutilated, Raped and Tortured in the most horrific and cruel fashion by tribesmen with Machetes. You are currently the commander of a Tank battalion from a different country.

Crossing the border means you start a war.

Do you cross?

if Yes - then there is clearly justification for wars - to stop a greater evil. It must be the absolute last resort, but still be an option.
if no - then you are a despicable human being for being able to stand by and watch cruelty to happen, with the power to stop it, yet do nothing.

Oh and the situation I picked has occured, and I am betting, will occour with similar circumstances again.

Yeah you did. It was a real doozy to.. I don't think I'm ever going to recover from it.

You Exchange money, you don't Order it. you need to have the money first - if you don't have the money (as under NOW) then you have nothing to Exchange.

Oh right... I'll remember to remind the travel agent not to order me any money until I give them mine first.

if there are no tills and no where to pay, no Credit Card companies (because money has been removed) how and why would I have a Credit Card?

Did I say there were no tills? Did I say there were no Credit Car companies?

No, your comment inferred that you didn't see a reason why people would want or need to travel overseas - I called you out on this being incredibly short sighted, but I will give you some grace on this, maybe it was a poorly worded comment.

Of course, if you had the same education as a Lawyer, maybe you would have been able to word the comment to reflect what you mean?

No, you translated what you thought I meant incorrectly. As you have every single time you've put words into my mouth.

I look at what people currently do and base my assumptions/theories off that - if there was a major shift in how we interacted with our fellow humans, then I might change my tune a little, but we haven't changed much in how we interact in around 2000 years of recorded history, so I don't see any changes happening soon.

People don't change eh? You don't look very hard do ya.

Ya Know, This is almost exactly what Lenin and Marx said 100 years ago - funnily enough, it didn't end up different - did it?

in fact, it ended up much worse and resulted in the largest country on earth collapsing in under itself.

Why, what happened to them?

Did they run out of money?

[mashman]

What? You've got more support than your wife, daughter and the bin man?
You do have a problem paying the market rate?
You don't want to answer the question on account of your advanced idiocy?



Suits me, consultants do quite well managing them.



What, cat got yer tongue dude?
Managers do steal infinitely available cash from their downtrodden employees?
People shouldn't be free to agree the price of their own shit?
You reckon removing money will prevent that devious practice?
Gwarne, we're all friends here, you can say why you'd like to get involved in everyone else's god damned business with impunity.

Honest.



Eyes wide open sport, I'm interested in the money that represents the value my clients agree my services are worth. And I'm fully aware that you'd like to dictate that price, but the fact of the matter is there's no reason you should have any say in that process whatsoever.



So again, you don't want to expose yourself or your family to the effects of your plan to enforce uniform income and associated benefits until your in a position to force everyone else to comply as well?

Do you really expect any buy-in to that from anyone outside your family?


Ok, ok: And the bin man.




Oh all RIGHT: And few serial underachievers that haven't got a hope of ever earning a median wage.

Just for a change, you fill in the blanks yourself.

[mashman]

Small fry not even in the same ball park as those who control world money and events!

Probably not. A recruitment drive perhaps